The Personal Pizza Podcast

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:17:05
Speaker 1
This feeling right in our society, that's like, how are you doing? You're like, I'm not doing well, but there's no where to put that. Yeah, really? Or there's a place to put broken. Like, I'm totally broken. I'm traumatized. There's a place for that. There's a place for like, this is perfect, I like manifested, I have the perfect. Like neither of them are real.

00:00:17:07 - 00:00:19:23
Speaker 2
Yes. And then there's where you are. Somewhere in between.

00:00:19:23 - 00:00:33:09
Speaker 1
There's somewhere in between of. Like I'm a hot mess. My heart's broken. And like my friends, this thing's going well. How do you make a space for someone where they're allowed to have all of it? And like, little baby steps forward?

00:00:33:11 - 00:00:33:21
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:00:33:21 - 00:00:45:07
Speaker 1
Not like, get over your grief. Like, oh, my God, your parents have been dead for five months. Get over it. How do you want to rebuild?

00:00:45:08 - 00:01:06:10
Speaker 2
Hi, welcome to my kitchen. I'm SIM Cleverbot and I'm going to be making pizza today with Jen Davis who is my new best friend. We will be making gluten free pizza and talking about grief, personal stories and and stories of helping others deal and process their own grief. So please stick around and let's see what happens. Oh hey Jen, thank you so much for coming today.

00:01:06:12 - 00:01:31:11
Speaker 2
To my house. You're welcome. And thank you for being gluten free, because it's offering me, like, a real chance to to be at the very edge of my capabilities in trying to do something interesting. You're about out I am, yes. This is. Yes, this is it. So one of the things that I so very badly wanted to talk to you about, that I, as soon as you walked in, I wanted to ask you about is that you say that you grew up in the Hudson Valley.

00:01:31:15 - 00:01:37:11
Speaker 2
That's true. And, it's true that you grew up in Hudson Valley. It's true that you say that.

00:01:37:13 - 00:01:44:23
Speaker 1
Actually, the last time I was allowed to eat gluten. Okay, I happened to be in the Hudson Valley for my birthday in the fall.

00:01:45:01 - 00:01:45:11
Speaker 2

00:01:45:14 - 00:01:50:19
Speaker 1
And I had so many apple cider donuts. And the lots of grilled cheese on. Right. Yep.

00:01:50:22 - 00:01:53:20
Speaker 2
I'm loving all of this okay.

00:01:53:21 - 00:01:57:08
Speaker 1
This and pizza okay. At Lola Pizza in Kingston.

00:01:57:09 - 00:02:15:18
Speaker 2
There it is. You and I are here today to talk about, grief and which. Good segue there. I've been doing this a long time. You can tell I'm an addict. I like it. And let me just get about grief here about so the thing about grief is that we all have a grief story. And I wanted to know if maybe you could spend not a ton of time.

00:02:15:18 - 00:02:20:17
Speaker 2
You know, it doesn't have to be, you know, Moth Radio Hour. But if you could tell me. Tell me your tale of.

00:02:20:17 - 00:02:21:15
Speaker 1
Woe I want.

00:02:21:16 - 00:02:26:16
Speaker 2
Okay. And we can compare notes, because don't you tell this story to yourself all the time.

00:02:26:18 - 00:02:30:11
Speaker 1
Well, mine feels a little like fragmented.

00:02:30:12 - 00:02:30:23
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:02:31:05 - 00:02:34:16
Speaker 1
My grief, my grief journey.

00:02:34:18 - 00:02:36:21
Speaker 2
Yes. I want to do it in chapters.

00:02:36:23 - 00:02:40:15
Speaker 1
No okay. I want to do it at one.

00:02:40:17 - 00:02:42:20
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:02:42:22 - 00:02:43:14
Speaker 1
Just death.

00:02:43:14 - 00:02:46:17
Speaker 2
Grief just. Okay. Yes.

00:02:46:19 - 00:03:14:10
Speaker 1
When I was 29, my aunt died of breast cancer that had spread to her brain. We were incredibly close. Incredibly close family. And then I'm just going to go for it. Yeah. Please. Three months later, my grandfather died, I think from a broken heart, but maybe also from, I actually, don't know, cancer of sorts.

00:03:14:12 - 00:03:22:22
Speaker 1
And then a year later, my grandmother died. His his his was away. They died in the same hospital bed in the Florida Keys.

00:03:22:22 - 00:03:23:15
Speaker 2
One year part.

00:03:23:18 - 00:03:36:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then maybe a I don't know how many years later, it's 33, 35 years later. Okay. My dad died of a heart attack. And then a year and a half later, my mom died of cancer.

00:03:36:16 - 00:03:38:12
Speaker 2
So that's the real kicker. How long was your mom sick for?

00:03:38:18 - 00:03:41:08
Speaker 1
Like, five weeks.

00:03:41:10 - 00:03:45:11
Speaker 2
To. That really sucks. Okay, that's pretty.

00:03:45:13 - 00:03:47:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm smiling.

00:03:47:10 - 00:03:49:08
Speaker 2
Now, listen, I'll tell you what.

00:03:49:10 - 00:03:51:08
Speaker 1
It's a lot to share right now.

00:03:51:11 - 00:04:05:04
Speaker 2
It's it's this is. Well, you know, I appreciate. Let's make a pizza and then we'll continue. So here we are. We're going to be very hot here. It's pretty hot. That's like that's like Neapolitan hot. Okay. 850 so I'm going to turn it down.

00:04:05:05 - 00:04:05:23
Speaker 1
Thermometer.

00:04:06:01 - 00:04:09:10
Speaker 2
That exciting. So for science I'm going to time it to.

00:04:09:11 - 00:04:10:09
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:04:10:11 - 00:04:19:22
Speaker 2
Okay okay. Good to now our timing it I'm going to drop it in and then you take it out with the other one. So we don't know what's going to happen. We really don't know okay.

00:04:19:22 - 00:04:22:07
Speaker 1
We're in. How how long are you going to cook.

00:04:22:07 - 00:04:26:07
Speaker 2
Super fast. So I'm going to turn it in like 20s.

00:04:26:09 - 00:04:27:11
Speaker 1
Oh in 20s.

00:04:27:11 - 00:04:48:08
Speaker 2
Oh yeah. It's 850 degrees in there. It's incredibly hot. I'll call it pizza in like 45 seconds with this heat. Yes, but I don't know what's going to happen with this weird stuff because it's because it's, you know, it's just it's going to react differently. So it may take forever. I don't know, we might want to pre-baked the other one and do something weird.

00:04:48:10 - 00:04:54:09
Speaker 2
Strange things are happening. But look at the cheese is already melting. The crust is like totally unchanged.

00:04:54:10 - 00:04:56:13
Speaker 1
But you can't tell if it's unchanged.

00:04:56:15 - 00:05:03:15
Speaker 2
Oh, no. You see, if I made a regular pizza right now, you'd see like how quickly the heat like it immediately puffs up like it.

00:05:03:20 - 00:05:05:03
Speaker 1
I don't think this one's going to move.

00:05:05:04 - 00:05:08:21
Speaker 2
We're not going to get no.

00:05:08:23 - 00:05:09:23
Speaker 1
Smoking a little.

00:05:10:00 - 00:05:11:11
Speaker 2
That's that's all good.

00:05:11:13 - 00:05:17:17
Speaker 1
I mean, no, but it's going to be dense. Like, have you ever had like a, like a gluten free cookie. It's like dense.

00:05:17:19 - 00:05:34:13
Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah. Each day. These things are happening. It does look terrible. Look at us. What do you think I want? We want more. We want more Brown. We want it right? That it's probably too much. Okay. Hold on.

00:05:34:15 - 00:05:37:00
Speaker 1
Stay carries about the amount of cheese that you put on.

00:05:37:01 - 00:05:47:17
Speaker 2
You wanted more cheese. I'm going to put a lot of parmesan on it. This is a conversation, you know. Yeah. And we're done saying okay, now we're good. Now that I burnt it, now I feel good about it. Okay, let's turn this, keep this going cause we're going to make one more.

00:05:47:17 - 00:05:49:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, we're doing another one. Yes.

00:05:49:05 - 00:05:50:10
Speaker 2
Let's see what we do here.

00:05:50:11 - 00:05:51:01
Speaker 1
Oh, wow.

00:05:51:03 - 00:05:55:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. What was that? Wow. For it.

00:05:55:02 - 00:06:00:13
Speaker 1
I just, I don't know, I just the blade somehow got me.

00:06:00:15 - 00:06:07:23
Speaker 2
Okay, so, let's try this a, I would like for you to take the first bite. Oh.

00:06:07:23 - 00:06:10:13
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:06:10:15 - 00:06:15:15
Speaker 2
And then. And then I'm just going to watch it really, really closely. I'm uncomfortable with pasta. Okay, I can't wait.

00:06:15:16 - 00:06:16:01
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:06:16:02 - 00:06:31:13
Speaker 2
Go for it. And I on the right. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I we've learned this. What I've learned way more cheese. You were right. Way more cheese Thomas. Geez.

00:06:31:15 - 00:06:33:14
Speaker 1
It's still delicious.

00:06:33:16 - 00:06:40:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. Because look at the bottom you want to be I think. So that's why we want to go thinner with the next one.

00:06:40:07 - 00:06:41:01
Speaker 1
More cheese.

00:06:41:01 - 00:06:52:09
Speaker 2
And then we can put more cheese on it. And then. And then. Yeah it's still good I really I mean the crust. What do we think about the crust. Are you like a big like I love crust person I'm a big crust person I mean I spent a lot of.

00:06:52:09 - 00:06:53:06
Speaker 1
Time call myself.

00:06:53:08 - 00:07:14:06
Speaker 2
But by the way, I do by the way look at like that doesn't look terrible. No, I really doesn't. And it just tastes like a little mushy. I'm proud of us. I'm. Now we got to do better. Now we're going to do the one that I think will be easier. Okay. So in 1978, my grandmother died. Okay.

00:07:14:08 - 00:07:14:22
Speaker 2
And then.

00:07:15:01 - 00:07:15:16
Speaker 1
Are you alive?

00:07:15:22 - 00:07:39:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, I was I was three months old. Oh, okay. And then, my, then my grandfather, whose wife just died. Yeah. Both of his parents died within the next two years. And then in 1982, my father, his son, died. And so in a four year period, he lost. Oh, and a brother died. So he lost a wife, a brother, both parents and a son in a five year period.

00:07:39:06 - 00:07:42:09
Speaker 1
So what happened to him psychologically and emotionally?

00:07:42:11 - 00:08:03:09
Speaker 2
He was still an accountant. He never stopped being an accountant. He always smoked cigarets and on the side of the house after dinner, but pretended like he didn't smoke. Always had whiskey when he got home from work and, like to watch TV. Like I never knew that he was, like, a deeply traumatized person. But I also never really saw a lot of emotion from him.

00:08:03:11 - 00:08:05:18
Speaker 2
Might have been a little shut down. Yeah.

00:08:05:20 - 00:08:08:15
Speaker 1
When did you know he was a traumatized person?

00:08:08:17 - 00:08:21:18
Speaker 2
I don't know anything. I also think we're. Well, sure. Like he was in Italy for World War two. Yeah. These people, the greatest generation, like they have a different they're different journey through trauma, than the rest of us. Yeah.

00:08:21:20 - 00:08:24:01
Speaker 1
Well, yes.

00:08:24:03 - 00:08:26:16
Speaker 2
All of for better or for worse.

00:08:26:18 - 00:08:29:22
Speaker 1
But then you have their children. Yes.

00:08:30:00 - 00:08:30:13
Speaker 2
Our parent.

00:08:30:13 - 00:08:31:06
Speaker 1
Parents.

00:08:31:06 - 00:08:31:23
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:08:32:01 - 00:08:43:04
Speaker 1
Who have like the beginnings of, like psychotherapy in this way. Yes. Right. Like, I don't know about you. My mom would always be like, God bless her. I'm not talking bad, but.

00:08:43:06 - 00:08:47:07
Speaker 2
You know, that's fine. She's not going to listen. She's no way she's going to watch this.

00:08:47:07 - 00:09:04:11
Speaker 1
I know, I would always be like, I can't do that because my mom made me wear cat eyeglasses when I was seven years old, and now I'm, like, terrified forever of that. Like, didn't learn. They learned how to accept the parts that weren't going well, but didn't learn how to get out of it. Right?

00:09:04:13 - 00:09:05:05
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:09:05:05 - 00:09:09:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, like, our grandparents just got through with, like, cigarets and.

00:09:09:06 - 00:09:10:23
Speaker 2
Whiskey just muscled their way through.

00:09:10:23 - 00:09:15:08
Speaker 1
Like, well, my grandfather got sober when he was older.

00:09:15:09 - 00:09:15:22
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:09:15:23 - 00:09:17:10
Speaker 1
And so he actually did a lot.

00:09:17:10 - 00:09:19:00
Speaker 2
Of emotional work.

00:09:19:02 - 00:09:22:20
Speaker 1
But I think we're the same age about.

00:09:23:00 - 00:09:24:00
Speaker 2
Yeah I'm 46 years.

00:09:24:00 - 00:09:25:03
Speaker 1
Old I'm 47.

00:09:25:03 - 00:09:29:19
Speaker 2
Years. Wow. Wow. Well I would have listen you're doing a good job.

00:09:29:20 - 00:09:39:20
Speaker 1
Thank you very much. Yeah. But I think we're the first generation. Yes. That is actually the guinea pig of what trauma is and how to get out of it.

00:09:39:20 - 00:09:44:00
Speaker 2
How to work with it, not how to ignore it, and also not how to be. Just like.

00:09:44:02 - 00:09:44:12
Speaker 1
How to go.

00:09:44:14 - 00:09:47:01
Speaker 2
Permanently fucked up by it.

00:09:47:01 - 00:09:47:22
Speaker 1
Yes, exactly.

00:09:47:22 - 00:10:11:12
Speaker 2
Okay. Well, you mentioned that your, grief process was all over the place. I'm wondering if you can. What were some of the unexpected aspects of your grief process? Meaning from the outside in, when a person is grieving, we have no idea what the whole experience is like from finding out about the lost initial processing, funeral, all the other stuff.

00:10:11:12 - 00:10:21:09
Speaker 2
Then like months after, what are the different stages that you went through? And then what was like, were there any like you were just like like I had no idea that this is what grief was going to be like.

00:10:21:11 - 00:10:23:04
Speaker 1
Because I'm writing a book.

00:10:23:06 - 00:10:25:13
Speaker 2
Okay. About congratulations.

00:10:25:15 - 00:10:33:12
Speaker 1
You about it's like nine essays on grief. With each experience and I've been.

00:10:33:12 - 00:10:41:01
Speaker 2
Working in my view over here, you're working on your father. So that means you're already you already got through your aunt. Are you doing it chronologically?

00:10:41:01 - 00:10:44:00
Speaker 1
I'm not writing it chronologically. Okay. But I did do my own.

00:10:44:02 - 00:10:46:03
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:10:46:05 - 00:10:57:22
Speaker 1
But I've been working on my father. Yes. And so it's been for the past six weeks. So it's been super interesting to see. My dad died suddenly when I was right in the middle of graduate.

00:10:57:22 - 00:11:00:20
Speaker 2
School for therapist. This is at Antioch.

00:11:00:21 - 00:11:01:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. Antioch.

00:11:01:20 - 00:11:03:16
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:11:03:18 - 00:11:15:03
Speaker 1
So, like, literally New Year's Eve between my two years. And I real, like, you had a heart attack, so I didn't get to say goodbye to him. He's very, very sudden.

00:11:15:05 - 00:11:18:16
Speaker 2
He was in New York. You were in the Midwest. Okay.

00:11:18:18 - 00:11:33:06
Speaker 1
But I realized this thing as I was writing it, because it's sort of my mother's death came so quickly that it, like, is, like just pushed to the side and I became an orphan, which is different than not having. Yes. Either one.

00:11:33:07 - 00:11:35:20
Speaker 2
Yes. Very quickly.

00:11:35:22 - 00:11:48:15
Speaker 1
Yeah. But I realized this thing, that because I was in graduate school to be a therapist. Yes. I was surrounded by therapists. Yes. I was constantly writing about my experience in the world.

00:11:48:17 - 00:11:50:22
Speaker 2
You'd given a lot of opportunity to process it. Yeah.

00:11:50:22 - 00:11:52:21
Speaker 1
And I started seeing clients for the first.

00:11:52:21 - 00:11:57:03
Speaker 2
Year, probably in the 99th percentile of opportunities to process grief.

00:11:57:05 - 00:11:58:03
Speaker 1
Incredible.

00:11:58:04 - 00:12:06:03
Speaker 2
Yes. Also, these young therapists, you just want to try out this new thing they just learned about. They really they've learned it for five minutes and now they're the expert.

00:12:06:05 - 00:12:15:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. No. But they also this thing of like I made a pact of myself. Yes. Where I was like, okay, grief. Like I've tried to outrun you. And it did not work.

00:12:15:23 - 00:12:16:20
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:12:16:22 - 00:12:20:04
Speaker 1
And it made it just destroyed everything okay okay.

00:12:20:06 - 00:12:21:16
Speaker 2

00:12:22:02 - 00:12:26:18
Speaker 1
So I'm going to work with you. These are my four ground rules.

00:12:26:20 - 00:12:36:09
Speaker 2
So this is like a conversation you had with grief by the way. It's very internal family systems talk right. Yes. Where you spoke to your parts. Yes. And you asked them what?

00:12:36:09 - 00:12:40:04
Speaker 1
Well, I said grief, I'm going to. You're in charge.

00:12:40:05 - 00:12:40:14
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:12:40:15 - 00:12:43:11
Speaker 1
I'm going to let you be in charge. Yes. You run the show. Yes.

00:12:43:11 - 00:12:45:10
Speaker 2
But

00:12:45:12 - 00:12:48:00
Speaker 1
You're not allowed to drink again because I don't drink.

00:12:48:02 - 00:12:49:06
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:12:49:08 - 00:12:58:13
Speaker 1
You're not allowed to cheat on your boyfriend okay. You have to get all A's in school still. Okay. And you're not allowed on my clients. Yes. So the second.

00:12:58:15 - 00:13:03:22
Speaker 2
I said it, like, three out of four are for real, and. But like, everyone gets A's in grad school. Like, what are you talking about?

00:13:03:22 - 00:13:04:11
Speaker 1
Totally.

00:13:04:14 - 00:13:05:12
Speaker 2
It's true.

00:13:05:14 - 00:13:08:06
Speaker 1
I actually don't even think that we got grades, to be honest.

00:13:08:08 - 00:13:13:18
Speaker 2
We're going to try the second pizza right now. Okay. So you spoke to your grades. Those are the for the.

00:13:13:18 - 00:13:15:00
Speaker 1
For my for.

00:13:15:02 - 00:13:16:07
Speaker 2

00:13:16:09 - 00:13:36:15
Speaker 1
And it was incredible because I actually got to process my grades. So I got to actually have my feelings in a safe way I to write about it. I got to be very present and I didn't try to get away from it. And I think that like, that's the thing in our culture that we absolutely do not have.

00:13:36:17 - 00:14:04:04
Speaker 1
Yes. What I have. And so that was a surprise. So by the time I graduated, yeah, I don't actually have words for this. I was filled with so much. My heart was so broken open. And I had a space where it was allowed to be broken open. So I felt more connected to the universe, more connected to my father, more connected to my clients.

00:14:04:06 - 00:14:18:23
Speaker 1
So I think it really, really taught me in, like, the actual moving, physical, bodily way, what it was to have an open heart. And that was a surprise to me.

00:14:19:01 - 00:14:22:00
Speaker 2
So you no longer work with clients? You're taking a break from that?

00:14:22:02 - 00:14:23:20
Speaker 1
I work as a life coach.

00:14:23:21 - 00:14:33:22
Speaker 2
What was around the switch? The switch there. This is a fascinating. So how did you, as a licensed therapist and then, you know, you never got licensed?

00:14:33:22 - 00:14:36:04
Speaker 1
I got 3000 hours. I never took my test.

00:14:36:04 - 00:14:37:20
Speaker 2
What happened?

00:14:37:22 - 00:14:44:15
Speaker 1
Well, I had lost both my parents. Yes, and I worked really, really hard. Those years. 3 or 4 years.

00:14:44:15 - 00:14:45:19
Speaker 2
Where did you do your allies.

00:14:45:23 - 00:14:50:22
Speaker 1
Full private practice? I did my training hours at Counseling West and.

00:14:50:22 - 00:14:53:07
Speaker 2
Okay, okay.

00:14:53:09 - 00:15:19:15
Speaker 1
Which I loved. And then I forced myself. I got really, really lucky. Really, really lucky. And this, now my mentor, Andrew, he found me. It's sort of, sweet story is that, but it's. I'm not going to tell it. Okay, but he found me. Save it for your book. He worked with predominantly men, okay?

00:15:19:17 - 00:15:23:13
Speaker 1
And I was like, I don't know how to work with men. I work with mostly women.

00:15:23:13 - 00:15:24:03
Speaker 2
Oh, no.

00:15:24:03 - 00:15:25:07
Speaker 1
Fuck. Oh, you fucked.

00:15:25:07 - 00:15:36:01
Speaker 2
It up, I really did. It's okay. No, it's not, it's it's okay. It's going to be okay. I know it's okay, but it's not ideal. Including it would be a real problem, because now I've just broken the gluten fibers for you.

00:15:36:05 - 00:15:36:15
Speaker 1
This is.

00:15:36:19 - 00:15:45:11
Speaker 2
Here. There were no there were no fibers to begin with. So. So this though is very different because of the higher water content. It rips very easily.

00:15:45:11 - 00:15:47:01
Speaker 1
Do you think this is going to be crispier?

00:15:47:04 - 00:16:12:16
Speaker 2
I think it should be. We should get more crisp, less dense just by the way it's behaving right now. Like I'm just it really wants to rip in a way that, just because there's no what really holds dough together is the gluten fibers. Sure. And so now we've taken that out. And so it's it's much more brittle, which makes me realize that people who work with gluten, these bakers are like, these are like masters wheat.

00:16:12:16 - 00:16:17:00
Speaker 1
So but maybe that is the recipe that's needed because of that.

00:16:17:01 - 00:16:27:04
Speaker 2
That we've gone to, we've gone too thin here, which is too much water. But if we can get it, if we can keep it from falling apart and get it in the oven, it should be very crisp coming back.

00:16:27:04 - 00:16:30:08
Speaker 1
You were telling me about your grandfather. Did you also say that your dad.

00:16:30:12 - 00:16:41:00
Speaker 2
My father is also just four years old. Yes. He had. Yes. Yes, there's there's a reason. There's a reason why we're doing this here right now. And it's because I'm a very broken person.

00:16:41:02 - 00:16:42:06
Speaker 1
But everyone's a broken.

00:16:42:09 - 00:16:44:21
Speaker 2
Yes. Just eating our own special ways.

00:16:44:22 - 00:16:47:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. And we all just break at different times.

00:16:47:14 - 00:16:54:23
Speaker 2
How? You are a creative person. Yes, I know you. Photography. Yes. Writing. Clearly. Anything else?

00:16:54:23 - 00:16:56:01
Speaker 1
I make sweatshirts.

00:16:56:01 - 00:16:59:03
Speaker 2
You make sweatshirts. Okay.

00:16:59:05 - 00:17:02:22
Speaker 1
Okay. Oh, okay. Watercolors.

00:17:03:00 - 00:17:03:18
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:17:03:20 - 00:17:05:02
Speaker 1
Has an actress?

00:17:05:02 - 00:17:11:04
Speaker 2
Yes. I want to know about how creative arts and grief go together and how such an.

00:17:11:04 - 00:17:11:16
Speaker 1
Interesting.

00:17:11:18 - 00:17:21:23
Speaker 2
How you're how that happened for you. And if it was useful because I know there's different ways to process grief. And maybe, maybe you found something here.

00:17:22:01 - 00:17:35:08
Speaker 1
I have a friend on Maui whose mother died. And she made shoes and she makes clothes. She's a painter. Incredible clothes. And she spent the year making I don't know what.

00:17:35:10 - 00:17:37:04
Speaker 2
This was after her mother.

00:17:37:04 - 00:17:38:22
Speaker 1
Passed the year after her mother died.

00:17:38:22 - 00:17:39:03
Speaker 2
To.

00:17:39:03 - 00:17:44:06
Speaker 1
So sticky beaded and yes. Credible top.

00:17:44:08 - 00:17:49:21
Speaker 2
Okay. Yes. Oh I knew what you meant.

00:17:49:23 - 00:17:51:05
Speaker 1
We. Can I ask you a question?

00:17:51:05 - 00:17:51:18
Speaker 2
Hell, yeah.

00:17:51:18 - 00:17:54:06
Speaker 1
What do you think is creativity?

00:17:54:08 - 00:18:16:23
Speaker 2
Oh, well, I mean, my question was not on just creativity, but my question is, are an artistic expression. Okay. So there's an element of creativity in that. But it's like, is there did you stumble upon some sort of yes. Rituals or practices? Is that surprisingly helped you grieve? I mean, obviously journaling that like we all have that that makes I.

00:18:16:23 - 00:18:36:21
Speaker 1
Didn't for a long time. But what I did do, which was very official actually, so I didn't even think about it right now, is that before when I was in graduate school, I had to, you know, you have to go to therapy, obviously. And I had a therapist for many, many years at that time who was a Buddhist minister.

00:18:37:02 - 00:18:51:03
Speaker 1
Okay. So she was a licensed by the beads. So I wasn't going to go get another therapist I see. So while I was in grad school I did art therapy. Was a woman and I drew the story of my life on butcher block paper.

00:18:51:05 - 00:18:52:06
Speaker 2
So it was one long.

00:18:52:11 - 00:19:25:04
Speaker 1
Like it's several long pieces. Okay. And then I stopped seeing her. And then when my mom died I went back. And so I drew I actually only looked at this for the first time recently. I drew on butcher block paper the entire experience of my mom and stuff, and after that was incredibly healing and helpful because the way that my brain got to process there, it's there's actually like a lot more language than the previous ones is a lot of language is a lot of storytelling.

00:19:25:04 - 00:19:46:22
Speaker 1
It's a lot of figuring it out. What happened. I did do that and then I didn't I think in writing a book about it, it's like it feels like the hallway is opening up so that it feels integrated. You ready? You just nervous how you think it's going to come out?

00:19:47:00 - 00:20:08:12
Speaker 2
I have no idea. I think I think if I, if we can land it, if we can land the plane, okay, once it's on, I think moving, it'll be okay because that. But I getting it off is going to be interesting. So. Okay. You got it off and gone okay. That's good. Okay. If you can get one turn then you know then we'll be safe from there on.

00:20:08:14 - 00:20:09:23
Speaker 1
I. Oh you got to turn.

00:20:10:02 - 00:20:26:17
Speaker 2
To look at it. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a different it's a different adventure. Look at this part. This feels like not a nice amount of peace. Right. Oh okay. Very nice. And it's looking like it's cooking nicely on the bottom. You can see that. Yeah. See it. We really want that. What's.

00:20:26:19 - 00:20:28:17
Speaker 1
So what do you mean you want that?

00:20:28:18 - 00:20:31:01
Speaker 2
I want more Brown all around that. Yeah.

00:20:31:06 - 00:20:35:23
Speaker 1
I to have the time to come back to yesterday. Oh it's bubbling.

00:20:36:02 - 00:20:41:08
Speaker 2
Yeah I like the bubbles and it's great.

00:20:41:10 - 00:20:46:15
Speaker 2
This is very encouraging for me and of itself.

00:20:46:17 - 00:20:48:07
Speaker 1
Oh, that looks amazing. That looks.

00:20:48:07 - 00:20:51:16
Speaker 2
Good. Yeah. You could do a little bit more here on a little darker.

00:20:51:16 - 00:20:52:04
Speaker 1
No.

00:20:52:10 - 00:20:52:18
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:20:52:20 - 00:20:53:21
Speaker 1
Do you want a darker.

00:20:53:23 - 00:21:05:23
Speaker 2
Let's do a little bit break here. Compare and contrast. Oh. Now I feel that. That's it. Now I feel what you see how it's that song.

00:21:06:00 - 00:21:08:18
Speaker 1
No, it's a song that was in your song.

00:21:08:18 - 00:21:14:20
Speaker 2
I know, I wish it was. Okay. Let's go in. Okay. We're doing it. Yeah, we're cutting, we're cutting.

00:21:14:22 - 00:21:16:11
Speaker 1
Oh, it's good here.

00:21:16:13 - 00:21:21:12
Speaker 2
Definitely. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

00:21:21:12 - 00:21:22:02
Speaker 1
Are you ready?

00:21:22:03 - 00:21:37:17
Speaker 2
I am ready. Well, I'm just looking at slippy. Yeah. What's nice I'm just noticing here is, like, just good open pockets. Oh, yeah. In between, like it did. Which means we got puff. Like there's air got in between. Yeah.

00:21:37:19 - 00:21:38:19
Speaker 1
You went from the top.

00:21:39:00 - 00:22:00:01
Speaker 2
I went in to the side. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, that's a normal way to go. Well what happens. Oh well, remember I want remember that I want the whole piece of cheese. Not in half. So look you've still got half in the end and the end. Just the right amount done in your mouth. Oh.

00:22:00:03 - 00:22:01:18
Speaker 1
Was slippy.

00:22:01:20 - 00:22:06:05
Speaker 2
It is I don't know I almost.

00:22:06:07 - 00:22:08:02
Speaker 1
It's like Goldilocks.

00:22:08:04 - 00:22:35:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yes. It's somewhere in between. Yeah. I need more water than in this would probably less water than here. Yeah. But I like the way this behaved like it doesn't like if you didn't know the get feels very bready. See what I mean. Like the, the people used that word that I hate mouthfeel. Oh I know it's it's really bad, but,

00:22:35:17 - 00:22:38:16
Speaker 1
I also don't like when people say they're in their fields.

00:22:38:18 - 00:22:42:06
Speaker 2
I don't like that either. I've never heard somebody say that. And, And I hate it clearly.

00:22:42:06 - 00:22:43:11
Speaker 1
Don't watch The Bachelor.

00:22:43:13 - 00:22:47:13
Speaker 2
I don't. I watch Real World season one.

00:22:47:14 - 00:22:48:08
Speaker 1
Still, and.

00:22:48:08 - 00:22:52:15
Speaker 2
Then half of season two. Oh no, no, no, in 1991 in 1992.

00:22:52:17 - 00:22:53:14
Speaker 1
Eric. Nice.

00:22:53:17 - 00:22:55:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. And Eric.

00:22:55:13 - 00:22:58:01
Speaker 1
It was a great show there.

00:22:58:01 - 00:23:09:20
Speaker 2
I just want to say, Eric was from new Jersey. Sure. He was first cousins with my sister's friend shop. And, I absolutely loved his relationship with Julie.

00:23:09:22 - 00:23:11:01
Speaker 1
They were together for.

00:23:11:03 - 00:23:17:20
Speaker 2
I don't know, just in that one season, I don't even know if it was real. But as a seventh grader, these were adults.

00:23:17:22 - 00:23:19:12
Speaker 1
They were adults. How old are they?

00:23:19:17 - 00:23:25:07
Speaker 2
I don't know, 20, 22. But it's a little kid. You're like, wow, look at these adults having real mature relationships.

00:23:25:09 - 00:23:26:09
Speaker 1
It was a good show.

00:23:26:11 - 00:23:45:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, okay. One question I did ask me about. Okay, I don't know. Yeah. Which is processing grief, using art to process grief. Yes. You did it in two different ways of two different occasions. One time you did this. Put your block, drawing of your from just the end of your mother's life, is that right? The whole.

00:23:45:21 - 00:23:53:19
Speaker 1
It was like, probably me finding out she had cancer to her to passed her death. But not that far past her death.

00:23:53:21 - 00:23:57:01
Speaker 2
And then a few years later, you started writing.

00:23:57:02 - 00:24:02:23
Speaker 1
Yes. I mean, I think I wrote the whole time, like, I always draw it. Sometimes I don't journal, but often I will.

00:24:02:23 - 00:24:07:13
Speaker 2
But this writing project is different because it was like an intentional, writing about the grief experience.

00:24:07:14 - 00:24:24:09
Speaker 1
It's also different because journaling is so much for yourself. Which is not that it doesn't like there's this is going to sound so pretentious, but I think about it all the time. So whenever there's this painter Giotto, okay, did like, Jesus paintings and like.

00:24:24:11 - 00:24:30:08
Speaker 2
Huge fan Italian. Yeah, sure. Yes. But first place I go in art museum.

00:24:30:10 - 00:24:31:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:32:00 - 00:24:36:22
Speaker 2
You should. Yes. We always start there. Okay. And I go to the fruit. Then I go to the fruit.

00:24:36:22 - 00:24:37:16
Speaker 1
Their fruit.

00:24:37:16 - 00:24:41:05
Speaker 2
And I guess what. My teeth. Yeah. Yes. That's it.

00:24:41:07 - 00:24:50:00
Speaker 1
This painter, he always left the space for the viewer. So if you look at his paintings, you can see where you're supposed to go in the scene.

00:24:50:05 - 00:24:58:20
Speaker 2
Okay? And so when you're writing about journaling is one thing, but when you're writing about grief, you're keeping in mind the potential for an audience.

00:24:58:22 - 00:25:04:15
Speaker 1
At some keeping in mind. But it's not as, hopefully self indulgent.

00:25:04:16 - 00:25:05:03
Speaker 2

00:25:05:05 - 00:25:05:14
Speaker 1
Right.

00:25:05:14 - 00:25:08:10
Speaker 2
Yes. That's what the editors for.

00:25:08:13 - 00:25:25:08
Speaker 1
Totally. But there's also like to say the specifics of it. You're telling a whole story as opposed to when I'm writing in my journal, I'm telling the story of generally what my feelings are doing right now, right now, or like I had I had fish last night or whatever. The most boring.

00:25:25:14 - 00:25:26:14
Speaker 2
Did. It tastes fishy.

00:25:26:14 - 00:25:29:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, I had fish to taste it. To fish?

00:25:29:06 - 00:25:30:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, I sent it back.

00:25:30:10 - 00:25:44:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. So it's different. But I think that drawing is, is way more, it's way more primal and and emotion. It's, it's more body based.

00:25:44:11 - 00:25:51:16
Speaker 2
Oh, I want to ask you this question. Yeah. It's so good. Okay. Because you've also done a lot of somatic experiencing work.

00:25:51:21 - 00:25:52:15
Speaker 1
Yes.

00:25:52:17 - 00:26:06:20
Speaker 2
And I want to hear about grief and the body. But let me ease into that, okay. By asking about how is it that drawing is more of a somatic grief processing than writing, which just.

00:26:06:22 - 00:26:24:13
Speaker 1
Oh, interesting. Well, I think that right. It's like pre-verbal things. Right. So if someone calls and says I'm dying or have cancer, my first response, it's like I just think about the brainstem. Right. I'm going to have three different responses. One in my survival brain one of my limbic.

00:26:24:15 - 00:26:26:11
Speaker 2
This is very dense Eagle of you.

00:26:26:13 - 00:26:27:15
Speaker 1
So that's where I learned.

00:26:27:19 - 00:26:30:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yes it is. Yes.

00:26:30:04 - 00:26:31:06
Speaker 1
But it helps.

00:26:31:12 - 00:26:35:16
Speaker 2
Brain stem because like good brain amygdala we don't. And then prefrontal.

00:26:35:16 - 00:26:53:07
Speaker 1
Cortex. And you know the most interesting thing I ever read was is that they all built on top of each other. They didn't integrate. They're obviously integrated into our brains. But the parts of the brain are not like they haven't worked together that well.

00:26:53:09 - 00:27:12:01
Speaker 2
You mean over the over top evolved. So I want okay. So evolution. Yeah. I was asking you about and then also in the does the first part the brain development stage is also. Yeah it's like you're born and you're a lot of amygdala. Yeah. And and the brain stem. Yeah. Prefrontal cortex is coming on online. So it's kind of like.

00:27:12:01 - 00:27:18:21
Speaker 1
Yeah it doesn't finish growing your prefrontal cortex until you're 27. Yes. And then you get childhood trauma drugs alcohol.

00:27:18:21 - 00:27:38:06
Speaker 2
Yeah I don't know. You know I feel like I'm still I'm still growing a little bit. I don't feel like I'm there. I feel like I got like I got taken out of the oven a little early. You just at 27. I was like, I was more. I thought this one and this one. Okay. So art more primal and therefore more somatic.

00:27:38:08 - 00:27:46:07
Speaker 2
And you and you said that when people, when you hear about a death it get you go primal first brain stem is first thing that it gets activated. Is that what you were saying?

00:27:46:07 - 00:27:47:18
Speaker 1
What didn't you say? I would think so.

00:27:47:19 - 00:28:05:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely, I'm not thinking you're you're not. The feelings come later, right? Yeah. And and you're in confusion for like, weeks. So. Yeah, the first thing is just, like, survived, but. Yeah.

00:28:05:04 - 00:28:17:01
Speaker 1
Or whatever. Or you're also orienting to a potentially new situation. Very new situation. Right. Which is what happens in your startle response. Like if somebody walked in right now, you and I would both orient.

00:28:17:06 - 00:28:25:10
Speaker 2
We would we would get activated. Yeah. And then we would immediately get vigilant and then. Yeah. And then we would figure out what's going on and we would start to calm down again.

00:28:25:10 - 00:28:30:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. So if you're like, oh it's just the dog, right. Oh fine. I can go back to my conversation.

00:28:31:04 - 00:28:50:03
Speaker 2
So, so therefore grief comes in and grief is so powerful that it goes past the amygdala, down to this primal experience. And therefore art is art is kind of able to get in there in a way without getting trapped in the cognitive writing. Yeah, or telling the story of it.

00:28:50:08 - 00:28:52:11
Speaker 1
It's like how people say, you should journal with your.

00:28:52:12 - 00:28:53:01
Speaker 2
Opposite.

00:28:53:01 - 00:28:55:17
Speaker 1
Hand. Yeah, or just journal instead of type.

00:28:55:19 - 00:29:23:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. Not enough. So I used to do I used to write comedy because I used to do stand up. Yeah. And and so that was creative. And then I do some creative things, but now I do not have enough creativity in my life. Full stop. And, Yeah. So I can't say that I've that in the grief processing that I've done to the extent that I have done it, I art hasn't really been a big a big part of it.

00:29:23:16 - 00:29:34:09
Speaker 1
Have you had other grief? Have you had grief experiences on top of losing your father so young?

00:29:34:11 - 00:29:54:17
Speaker 2
Well, nothing like that, because that's kind of like sets it up. So then everything, everything else is like a comparison. My childhood was not great. It's not a grand childhood. There's not. There was a middle period, through adolescence where my mother was married to, her second husband, my former stepfather, and they did not have a healthy relationship.

00:29:54:18 - 00:30:17:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. So there's a lot of domestic violence in that period. Yeah. And so when that ended in seventh grade, then I was just kind of in like a suspended animation, for a while. And so it wasn't I didn't necessarily grieve my childhood as a thing that I missed, but it was certainly, there was elements of grief that are in there.

00:30:17:04 - 00:30:18:17
Speaker 2
It's still comes up. Now, let me just say that.

00:30:18:22 - 00:30:23:03
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, I think grief comes up forever. Yes, forever.

00:30:23:04 - 00:30:24:18
Speaker 2
It's cyclical, for sure.

00:30:24:18 - 00:30:44:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. But it's also really different. Losing. Right. Like I was already fully I wasn't fully formed in the creating of a life when my aunt died. Yes. You know, I was falling. I was in love. I got my heart broken for the first time right after that, too. So that's the timing.

00:30:44:10 - 00:30:46:09
Speaker 2
I needed to include that in your grief story.

00:30:46:10 - 00:31:04:18
Speaker 1
It is. It is, unfortunately. Yeah. But I think I was fully formed enough right to know. Oh, I've had 29 years with this woman, and I had 29 years with a family intact. Not totally. I mean, I also I'm sorry, I grew up with domestic violence. Yeah. You know, but.

00:31:04:18 - 00:31:06:23
Speaker 2
Hey, high fives. Yeah, yeah.

00:31:07:01 - 00:31:16:13
Speaker 1
But the grieving is different because you're growing into who you are. I didn't grow up with my dad. My dad. My parents got divorced when I was one.

00:31:16:16 - 00:31:17:03
Speaker 2

00:31:17:05 - 00:31:19:00
Speaker 1
So I grew up with just my mom.

00:31:19:02 - 00:31:20:18
Speaker 2
My parents also got divorced when I was one.

00:31:20:19 - 00:31:21:08
Speaker 1
Really?

00:31:21:08 - 00:31:23:02
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:31:23:04 - 00:31:25:20
Speaker 1
And then where? Then your dad when he died?

00:31:25:22 - 00:31:32:08
Speaker 2
He was he. We were living. Everyone was living in Washington, DC. He was in New York City when he died. Oh, yes.

00:31:32:10 - 00:31:33:17
Speaker 1
And can I ask how he died?

00:31:33:20 - 00:31:56:14
Speaker 2
He was walking in midtown, walking out of a building and across the street. They were finishing construction on a building, and they were dismantling the crane, you know, one of the huge cranes. And the crane broke and it like, fell. And as it fell, it hit buildings. And he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time walking out and things were falling and he ran.

00:31:56:14 - 00:32:02:03
Speaker 2
And then he just got hit in the head with a piece of marble. Yes, in midtown, of all places.

00:32:02:05 - 00:32:03:14
Speaker 1
I mean that.

00:32:03:16 - 00:32:06:10
Speaker 2
And I've always hated Midtown, of course. Yeah.

00:32:06:12 - 00:32:08:06
Speaker 1
Do you know, have you been to that spot?

00:32:08:06 - 00:32:09:01
Speaker 2
Sure.

00:32:09:03 - 00:32:11:19
Speaker 1
What? How old were you the first time you went there?

00:32:11:21 - 00:32:31:18
Speaker 2
I mean, I was going to the city my whole life. So the first time I intentionally went there, I was staying at a hotel around the corner. And then I realized, oh, my God, I'm one block away. I'm right here because I woke up in the morning just feeling off. Yeah. And I just felt like there was like the, you know, the, the, the, the city of New York was holding that traumatic experience for me.

00:32:31:20 - 00:32:34:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yes it is. Yes.

00:32:34:14 - 00:32:39:15
Speaker 2
So that was on Sixth Avenue in the 40s and in the high 40s, I think.

00:32:39:17 - 00:32:41:11
Speaker 1
Near Rockefeller Center, not far.

00:32:41:17 - 00:32:42:01
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:32:42:05 - 00:32:45:03
Speaker 1
My mom used to work on sixth and fifth.

00:32:45:03 - 00:32:46:15
Speaker 2
First it. Yeah.

00:32:46:17 - 00:32:53:09
Speaker 1
Okay. Right there. Yeah, yeah. That's horrible. I know, I'm sorry. That's so.

00:32:53:09 - 00:32:57:13
Speaker 2
Awful. It is.

00:32:57:15 - 00:33:09:13
Speaker 1
Okay. So can I ask you what. It's so because it's different, right? It's different. It is also like my dad was alive. He just wasn't in my life to the extent that I wanted that you.

00:33:09:13 - 00:33:13:22
Speaker 2
Would have liked.

00:33:14:00 - 00:33:37:10
Speaker 1
And so the experience of my longing for him. Hey, there's a different kind of longing when someone's alive than when they're not. Right. There's like a longing for me. It's like a powerlessness. Longing when someone has died. Yes. That you can want like your child is, you know, and you can't have it. Whereas if someone's alive it's a different.

00:33:37:12 - 00:33:38:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. Set up. Right.

00:33:38:10 - 00:33:55:07
Speaker 2
Well this this. So therefore your grief around your father was probably complicated because were you grieving not only the the death and the loss of your that father, but also indirectly. You're also kind of grieving this child, this relationship that you never got to have with him.

00:33:55:13 - 00:34:09:18
Speaker 1
Well, I guess, but I will I will tell you, it's like this essay I've been writing. It's called my baby. I just got my dad's handwriting tattooed on my arm. On the 4th of January.

00:34:09:23 - 00:34:10:14
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:34:10:16 - 00:34:12:05
Speaker 1
After nine years.

00:34:12:07 - 00:34:14:09
Speaker 2
Which was January 4th, was the.

00:34:14:09 - 00:34:15:19
Speaker 1
Died January 1st.

00:34:15:22 - 00:34:16:08
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:34:16:08 - 00:34:21:17
Speaker 1
But I was in I was at a place where I was in water, so I couldn't get a.

00:34:21:19 - 00:34:24:21
Speaker 2
Decent one of the rules of tattoos. Okay.

00:34:24:23 - 00:34:43:09
Speaker 1
But the two years before he died, 2 or 3 years. When he died, he called me and he said, I'm so sorry I wasn't ready to be your dad. I messed up, and I love you, but I'm ready now.

00:34:43:10 - 00:34:44:10
Speaker 2

00:34:44:12 - 00:35:00:15
Speaker 1
Which is really incredible that I had that experience. But also, I had so much guilt about maybe not being as ready. Right. Like I was defended a little bit against my need for him.

00:35:00:17 - 00:35:02:15
Speaker 2
Correct. And this is at 27.

00:35:02:20 - 00:35:04:12
Speaker 1
You know that. 38.

00:35:04:15 - 00:35:08:04
Speaker 2
Oh right. Right. I got okay. Oh yes.

00:35:08:06 - 00:35:13:19
Speaker 1
Right. So my dad and I always had an incredible relationship were the same. We're really similar.

00:35:13:21 - 00:35:16:11
Speaker 2
To you were so there was a friendliness.

00:35:16:13 - 00:35:20:15
Speaker 1
Oh my god. Not just friendly like obsessed with each other when we were together.

00:35:20:17 - 00:35:21:14
Speaker 2

00:35:21:16 - 00:35:35:23
Speaker 1
But we just. He just had us other had a life. But. So the complication I think was like, oh my God, I crave this thing my whole life. And then I got it and it got taken away for me.

00:35:36:01 - 00:35:40:09
Speaker 2
24 months of having a version of a father that you never thought you were going to.

00:35:40:09 - 00:35:46:11
Speaker 1
Have or having like, and I always sort of had him. But yes like later in life he figured out.

00:35:46:13 - 00:35:48:10
Speaker 2
How old was he when you were born.

00:35:48:12 - 00:35:49:10
Speaker 1
23.

00:35:49:16 - 00:35:53:12
Speaker 2
So he was a young man. Yeah. And he was not ready for a baby. Yes.

00:35:53:14 - 00:35:56:22
Speaker 1
I don't like they weren't supposed to have me.

00:35:57:00 - 00:35:58:07
Speaker 2
I would argue they were.

00:35:58:10 - 00:35:59:08
Speaker 1
You know I would.

00:35:59:08 - 00:36:04:11
Speaker 2
I do I feel like it's, I think, I feel like it's a net game for my daddy. Yeah.

00:36:04:13 - 00:36:14:23
Speaker 1
But, but it is a different again like that's a different kind of.

00:36:15:01 - 00:36:29:17
Speaker 1
Like a I guess psychologically you're always sort of growing around something. Yes. Right. And shaping around it. But I'm curious if you're so if you were so little.

00:36:29:18 - 00:36:33:18
Speaker 1
What are you don't have to answer this obviously, but.

00:36:33:20 - 00:36:34:22
Speaker 2
I, I love the question.

00:36:35:00 - 00:36:42:15
Speaker 1
Where they're ideas. They you decided about yourself at a young age based on that, that you've held on to.

00:36:42:17 - 00:37:06:23
Speaker 2
I think. Yeah. And that's why I asked you in the very beginning, like the story of your grief, because so much for me, of my of my story around my father's death is like this story that I tell to myself my whole life. Yeah. Right. Like I'm just sitting there like. And then I just randomly start going into this, and it's like, I'm just literally telling stories to myself to make myself feel good.

00:37:07:01 - 00:37:11:02
Speaker 2
And so that story is. Yeah, very defining for sure.

00:37:11:02 - 00:37:17:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. But are you telling yourself a self-soothing story or a story about. Not good.

00:37:17:19 - 00:37:33:03
Speaker 2
Well, it depends on how I'm. If I'm telling it, because I want to tell myself a funny story, then I will be, like, mining every funny moment that I can find from this particularly horrible story. Is there anything funny here? And is there anything? Or then sometimes I'm like, yeah, let me just think about how terrible this was.

00:37:33:03 - 00:37:35:15
Speaker 2
All right. So different. Yeah. Different versions. Yeah.

00:37:35:15 - 00:37:40:07
Speaker 1
But I think every death is different. It is every single one.

00:37:40:11 - 00:37:41:06
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:37:41:08 - 00:37:52:22
Speaker 1
I mean I think that I wonder, like, I think there were years I don't feel this way right now, but I didn't expect my 30s and 40s to be taken over by grief.

00:37:53:00 - 00:37:56:21
Speaker 2
Right. We didn't expect that your father and mother were going to die after they died.

00:37:56:21 - 00:38:02:10
Speaker 1
Sort of later. Yes. So I think that the grief journey starting at 28, I hate that phrase, grief journey.

00:38:02:12 - 00:38:06:20
Speaker 2
I know, I know, what else would you say my grief experience.

00:38:06:22 - 00:38:11:17
Speaker 1
My grief travels. It sounds like brief travels.

00:38:11:17 - 00:38:20:15
Speaker 2
Yes. Okay. We have to work on a better name. I know the word journey. Journey is over years. Yes. It's overused.

00:38:20:19 - 00:38:25:09
Speaker 1
Like my journey with a narcissist. That's. I'm just going to do catch phrases.

00:38:25:09 - 00:38:28:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Just only only speak in names of Dan Siegel.

00:38:28:17 - 00:38:35:01
Speaker 1
Books minded. I only have. Yeah.

00:38:35:02 - 00:38:39:19
Speaker 2
I had in grad school. I had a real dislike for dance. You go into Pepperdine, I went to Penn.

00:38:39:23 - 00:38:41:13
Speaker 1
Why did you dislike Dan Siegel?

00:38:41:14 - 00:39:01:08
Speaker 2
Because I felt that I resented the fact that it seemed like he was just taking, the ideas that other people developed and then, putting, like, his spin on them and then making them more palatable, such that you could buy one book and you have a basic understanding of mindfulness when like, oh, I was like, I don't I've learned, I've humbled myself.

00:39:01:10 - 00:39:18:03
Speaker 2
Whereas John Kabat-Zinn wrote, like, you know, a full living, full whatever, the full catastrophe, that's like a huge book on it. And then he just comes and he does this little thing, and he did the same thing with attachment and then and then. So I was like, why doesn't he, you know, quoted sources better and really right papers.

00:39:18:06 - 00:39:34:18
Speaker 2
And then I grew up and then I was having a conversation recently with therapist who I happened to be married to was my wife. And she we were talking about attachment theory, and she asked if I had any books on attachment theory. And I went and got the books out. And there were these gigantic tombs, right? Just huge books.

00:39:34:20 - 00:39:57:08
Speaker 2
And like, not helpful for a clinician. And then I realized, oh, this is what Dancy goes for, for people who actually work for a living and don't, like, have a grad school opportunity to dig into attachment. But one 150 pages on attachments, they can actually understand it. Yeah. So now I have tremendous respect for Dan Siegel. But it took me took me almost ten years to come to this point.

00:39:57:10 - 00:39:58:16
Speaker 1
But that makes sense to me.

00:39:58:19 - 00:40:00:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. Now that I'm an adult.

00:40:00:08 - 00:40:04:09
Speaker 1
I don't have any feeling. I think there was a moment where I was like, oh my God.

00:40:04:11 - 00:40:06:01
Speaker 2
Dan Siegel!

00:40:06:03 - 00:40:19:03
Speaker 1
And then he did, he Chelsea Handler do you know about this book? Chelsea Handler saw Dan Siegel to process the death of her brother.

00:40:19:05 - 00:40:22:10
Speaker 2
Oh, you know, he's like $1,200 an hour.

00:40:22:12 - 00:40:23:16
Speaker 1
Chelsea Handler is rich.

00:40:23:16 - 00:40:33:15
Speaker 2
She is rich? Yeah. What's the most you would pay for therapy? Money is complicated. And as a therapist, you on one hand, you are just sitting there and the person is.

00:40:33:17 - 00:40:35:08
Speaker 1
Just not know.

00:40:35:10 - 00:40:53:01
Speaker 2
What? No. But to the untrained eye, right, I have this I have this conversation with people all the time who in my community just never go to therapy and think therapy is weird. And they want to talk about that with therapists, which is weird, because if I didn't pay taxes, yeah, I would never go up to an accountant and be like, man, f the IRS, your job is ridiculous.

00:40:53:05 - 00:40:59:17
Speaker 2
But people do that all the time. Yeah, just pointing that out. That's true. Yeah, I do pay taxes, though.

00:40:59:20 - 00:41:00:13
Speaker 1
I believe that.

00:41:00:13 - 00:41:04:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, my uncle is my accountant and he's in. He's been. You've been good for me. He's a good.

00:41:04:12 - 00:41:04:20
Speaker 1
Accountant.

00:41:05:01 - 00:41:13:05
Speaker 2
He's great. Yes. He's in New York. Kanter and Levin Berg a great time. Yeah. He was yeah it was my grandfather's firm. Oh I come from a family of accountants.

00:41:13:05 - 00:41:17:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. Hence the number. Talk about the pizza pie.

00:41:17:02 - 00:41:18:21
Speaker 2
Those were fractions. But. Yeah.

00:41:19:02 - 00:41:20:01
Speaker 1

00:41:20:03 - 00:41:30:05
Speaker 2
It was good. I appreciate that. Fraction is a number. Yes. It is. So you still as a life coach? Yeah. Because you got your 3000 hours, but you didn't want to take the test. Sure.

00:41:30:07 - 00:41:35:14
Speaker 1
Oh, I didn't I didn't ever get my, hours, family or couple hours.

00:41:35:19 - 00:41:37:09
Speaker 2
So you were seeing adults.

00:41:37:11 - 00:41:38:00
Speaker 1
Yes.

00:41:38:05 - 00:41:39:02
Speaker 2
Or individuals?

00:41:39:04 - 00:41:39:19
Speaker 1
Adults.

00:41:39:19 - 00:41:40:12
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:41:40:14 - 00:41:42:07
Speaker 1
Adult individuals.

00:41:42:07 - 00:41:46:02
Speaker 2
Yes. Yes. And that's what you still see as a life coach.

00:41:46:04 - 00:42:14:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, but I like to work with people. I've just started integrating like expansion, brain spotting, somatic experiencing more into coaching. I like to work with people who are building something on the outside, right? In therapy or building something on the inside so that your outsides change. Or the hope is them. But I like I think it's so fun to build that work with a creative people different.

00:42:14:00 - 00:42:37:13
Speaker 1
They'll do different things. But watching their blocks come up and how your psychology really gets in the way is so exciting to me. I love building, I just like building and I like action. I think I was a probably really cocky therapist. Right? Like I'd be like, okay, can you you know.

00:42:37:15 - 00:42:53:19
Speaker 2
I love goal achievement with class. Like, I like clients come in and say, let's what what are we working on? How are we going to know when you're done with therapy? How are we going to measure it along the way? Yeah. Let's break it down into steps. What are we doing first? Yeah. So clients come to you and they're are doing a creative.

00:42:53:19 - 00:43:12:17
Speaker 2
They're writing a screenplay. I'm making up it. Yeah. And in the process of that, they're having like, just relationship stuff is coming up for them or grief is coming up for them. And, and it's, an obstacle in their creative process. Is that the kind of thing you would help them with? They're coming to you to work around it, through it.

00:43:12:19 - 00:43:34:05
Speaker 1
Or sort of all different things. Okay. I think that everyone I did have an idea that I never really, did anything with, but, to do a rebuilding after loss program because or work with people. Because my experience, right, is like, I was a therapist. I loved being a therapist, even though it was never my idea to be a therapist.

00:43:34:05 - 00:43:36:02
Speaker 1
I loved my clients. People don't.

00:43:36:02 - 00:43:40:05
Speaker 2
Accidentally wind up in grad school, though, so it must have been your idea on some.

00:43:40:05 - 00:43:43:00
Speaker 1
Level. I went along with it.

00:43:43:02 - 00:43:43:23
Speaker 2
You acquiesced.

00:43:44:05 - 00:44:01:21
Speaker 1
But I'm a therapist because of how I grew up. And also, I don't know if, you know, like, I went to grad school was a lot of people most of those people know of and a did not want to be my therapist. Yes. Right. Like you're not looking around being like, look, a room full of therapists, like a lot of them, you're like, oh my God, no, please don't.

00:44:01:23 - 00:44:04:11
Speaker 2
I feel that way. If I ever go on Psychology Today.

00:44:04:13 - 00:44:07:06
Speaker 1
Oh my God. Yes. Network as a therapist.

00:44:07:10 - 00:44:08:14
Speaker 2
I don't.

00:44:08:16 - 00:44:09:17
Speaker 1
I didn't I.

00:44:09:17 - 00:44:25:04
Speaker 2
I have like three for I have friends who. Well my wife's a therapist. So we do talk about work and we have friends who are in our in the business. But I've never been to a networking event before. And if I ever go to a place and there's a bunch of therapists like it's a training, I'm just like, in the back of the room, like mumbling to myself.

00:44:25:04 - 00:44:26:03
Speaker 1
Terrifying.

00:44:26:05 - 00:44:27:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's yes.

00:44:27:21 - 00:44:44:01
Speaker 1
I went to one networking thing and then my mentor, my supervisor, was like, oh, you're good. You don't have to go. Yeah, because I was like, this is so weird. The idea of being in a room with someone is like, I'm Bob, I work in addiction. You're like, oh, okay, Bob. Like, it's so scary. And weirdly desperate.

00:44:44:03 - 00:44:48:18
Speaker 2
Yeah. And then you need a specialty, and then you need a good story. And then because. And then all.

00:44:48:18 - 00:44:53:11
Speaker 1
The universe sends the people that that you're supposed to be with.

00:44:53:15 - 00:44:54:18
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:44:54:20 - 00:45:10:00
Speaker 1
My experience. Not after my dad died, but after my mom died. Because I grew up alone with my mom, for the most part, I had a stepdad. I still the stepdad, but our psyches were, like, completely entwined. Correct? Our whole lives.

00:45:10:00 - 00:45:13:21
Speaker 2
She was. She was you as a single mom. Yeah. And then there's this stepdad. But you guys were always.

00:45:13:23 - 00:45:14:07
Speaker 1
Like.

00:45:14:07 - 00:45:17:00
Speaker 2
This locked in. It was my mom.

00:45:17:01 - 00:45:22:09
Speaker 1
And so when she died, I had absolutely no idea who I was anymore.

00:45:22:11 - 00:45:24:03
Speaker 2
Well.

00:45:24:05 - 00:45:32:16
Speaker 1
And I continued being a therapist. I weirdly in the room very much knew who I was, if that makes any sense.

00:45:32:16 - 00:45:44:20
Speaker 2
Well, from if we're thinking from a parts perspective, because then you're in your seat as a therapist, playing the role as a therapist and grief, as per the four conditions, stepped aside and allowed you to work. So it was a respite.

00:45:45:01 - 00:45:50:05
Speaker 1
Totally. And it was the part of me that wasn't broken because I felt so broken.

00:45:50:07 - 00:45:51:02
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:45:51:04 - 00:46:13:14
Speaker 1
So that part was the only part that felt like. And I would argue that that part sustained me, through so much pain. But then when I was like, I can't be in there, like, I need a minute. I don't have any idea. I mean, I needed a minute after three years, right? So and then Covid happened.

00:46:13:14 - 00:46:41:08
Speaker 1
So it wasn't. But but I then felt this feeling I'd never felt in my entire life of like, oh, I have no idea. How to proceed and what to do. And that, I think ultimately, years later, not that many, but like four years later, came down to this idea that it felt like a real betrayal to rebuild a life without my family.

00:46:41:10 - 00:46:43:21
Speaker 1
Does that make sense?

00:46:43:23 - 00:46:51:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. That you are by moving on that you're leaving them behind. Yeah. And. Yeah.

00:46:51:18 - 00:47:06:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I was like I would love to be there for people in a way that's not like get over it. It's not just a betrayal. It's getting you further away from a moment where you felt safe. Oh, I know it.

00:47:06:20 - 00:47:07:12
Speaker 2
Oh.

00:47:07:13 - 00:47:28:00
Speaker 1
Oh, this feeling right in our society, that's like, how are you doing? You're like, I'm not doing well, but there's no where to put that. Yeah, really? Or there's a place to put broken. Like I'm totally broken. I'm traumatized and there's a place for that. There's a place for like this is perfect, I like manifested, I have a perfect life.

00:47:28:03 - 00:47:30:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. At a very I don't, I don't know where that place is.

00:47:30:15 - 00:47:32:01
Speaker 1
But neither of them are right.

00:47:32:05 - 00:47:35:20
Speaker 2
Yes. But. Yes. And then there's where you are. Somewhere in between.

00:47:35:20 - 00:47:56:05
Speaker 1
There's somewhere in between. Yes. Of like I'm a hot mess. My heart's broken. And like my friends, this thing's going well. But. So how do you make a space for someone where they're allowed to have all of it? And, like, little baby steps forward? Yes. Not like, get over your grief.

00:47:56:07 - 00:47:56:21
Speaker 2

00:47:56:23 - 00:48:08:10
Speaker 1
Like, oh my God, your parents have been dead for five months. Get over it like how do you want to rebuild with with kid gloves. I don't think that we have that.

00:48:08:12 - 00:48:35:23
Speaker 2
You're right. It's either people want. You have to be wearing a black dress. And just like I just I make up running everywhere sobbing. Yeah. Or you supposed to be, you've you've you've, you've you processed your grief. You know, you awful and you've done it and now you're just on your way back. But the, the messy process and then not having a place to do it, is lacking in our society.

00:48:35:23 - 00:48:37:03
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:48:37:05 - 00:48:39:13
Speaker 2
I would say Judaism does a good job with grief.

00:48:39:15 - 00:48:40:14
Speaker 1
Does such a good job.

00:48:40:14 - 00:48:41:21
Speaker 2
One of the things we do best.

00:48:41:21 - 00:48:45:09
Speaker 1
I also like the year marker.

00:48:45:11 - 00:48:46:06
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:48:46:08 - 00:48:49:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. But also there is one thing that and.

00:48:49:00 - 00:48:52:23
Speaker 2
Have you ever been to a shiver house? No. Okay. So person dies.

00:48:52:23 - 00:48:54:12
Speaker 1
You bury me I know. Yeah.

00:48:54:15 - 00:49:15:07
Speaker 2
Bury a burial immediately. Right. And then for one week, the mourners stay in their house and they sit on low chairs and cover up all the mirrors. And everybody in their life comes to visit with them. And you spend the whole week just talking about how sad you are and how amazing this person was, or how angry you are and how frustrating it or whatever you want.

00:49:15:07 - 00:49:20:07
Speaker 2
You're just, you're just moonlighting as the center of attention in your own house for a week.

00:49:20:09 - 00:49:28:01
Speaker 1
I would like to go there, but also, I don't understand. Would you explain to me why the low chair.

00:49:28:03 - 00:49:39:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. Just because, to sit on a high chair is, you know, you're like a it's a kingly thing. So you're on a low chair just because you're you should be really be on the ground. It's like, it's like really in there. Yeah. In the.

00:49:39:13 - 00:49:40:13
Speaker 1
It's a symbolism of a.

00:49:40:17 - 00:49:55:07
Speaker 2
Yes of the of the. You don't. Yes. All you wear torn garments for the week like you. Yeah. You tear your shirt all the way down like if you're wearing three shirts. I don't know why you're doing three shirts, but if you were wearing three shirts, you would tear them all. Then you just wear those shirts for the week.

00:49:55:07 - 00:49:55:11
Speaker 2
You.

00:49:55:13 - 00:49:57:10
Speaker 1
So there's clothing like bare skin.

00:49:57:15 - 00:50:03:15
Speaker 2
Not bears you can cut. Yeah, I like a little bit, but you can't really see cause you haven't undershirt on underneath. Okay, okay. Yeah. So you just like a wreck for.

00:50:03:17 - 00:50:12:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. But that I mean a week is, it's an incredible. But also isn't there a thing where there used to be like, after a year what happens.

00:50:12:21 - 00:50:34:14
Speaker 2
Oh. So then you mourn. You mourn for a whole 11 months of mourning. Yeah. Right. And then, and so that means you're going to you're going to the synagogue to say certain prayers, and you're also not, you know, you don't go to weddings, you don't do a lot of, it's actually like a real it's like, but the my Larry David parts are always like, I always see people who are mourners and they're like, I can't go to your bar mitzvah.

00:50:34:14 - 00:50:51:19
Speaker 2
I'm so sorry. And you know that they're secretly happy because they didn't want to go to the right mitzvah anyway, so there's a lot of using it for an excuse. But then after that, then every year on the anniversary of their death, then you go to the synagogue and you say more prayers, and then you have like, you know, you have friends over and you do something nice.

00:50:52:00 - 00:50:59:14
Speaker 2
And it's like this yearly thing I go to, I go gravesite to visit my father every year to the cemetery in beautiful Woodbridge, new Jersey. Yeah.

00:50:59:16 - 00:51:01:02
Speaker 1
You, you pilgrimage.

00:51:01:04 - 00:51:15:23
Speaker 2
I make a pilgrimage. Yes. Every year. Every year. And then I actually, I do like a whole East Coast cemetery tour because I visit my uncle, and then I visit, the Lubavitcher rabbi. He's buried in Queens. And then. Yes, I'll do, like, 3 or 4. Just bounce around, go to cemeteries every day.

00:51:16:01 - 00:51:19:21
Speaker 1
That's when my people are all cremated.

00:51:19:23 - 00:51:20:11
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:51:20:11 - 00:51:23:17
Speaker 1
Which I don't, which is hard.

00:51:23:19 - 00:51:29:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. Where did where are the remains?

00:51:29:03 - 00:51:33:00
Speaker 1
A lot of different places. A lot of them are at my house.

00:51:33:02 - 00:51:34:05
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:51:34:07 - 00:51:35:04
Speaker 1
East Lake.

00:51:35:04 - 00:51:39:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. Okay. So that's where they want it to be.

00:51:40:02 - 00:51:46:05
Speaker 1
I have my mom, like, in a in, I don't think it's an her. It's like a thing I got. Okay.

00:51:46:10 - 00:51:47:07
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:51:47:09 - 00:52:08:02
Speaker 1
And she sort of faces the front door. So in a way, it is pretend. But there's nothing like the I try on the anniversary of my mom dying. My dad's and it's new Jersey, so I always try it. But like, this past year, I got five girlfriends together and cook them dinner.

00:52:08:04 - 00:52:08:19
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:52:08:21 - 00:52:09:08
Speaker 1
I was like.

00:52:09:12 - 00:52:10:12
Speaker 2
This is nice.

00:52:10:14 - 00:52:19:10
Speaker 1
Yes. Thank you, ma'am, for being here in my life. So I try to do as much ritual as possible.

00:52:19:12 - 00:52:20:23
Speaker 2
Yes, I love that.

00:52:20:23 - 00:52:21:23
Speaker 1
That feels important.

00:52:22:00 - 00:52:23:02
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:52:23:04 - 00:52:25:06
Speaker 1
But. But overall.

00:52:25:06 - 00:52:29:07
Speaker 2
What did you make? What was your, like, anniversary of my mom's death?

00:52:29:09 - 00:52:30:11
Speaker 1
Dinner. Yeah.

00:52:30:12 - 00:52:32:17
Speaker 2
Were there apps and, like, some.

00:52:32:19 - 00:52:40:18
Speaker 1
This salad about to drop some restaurant. Okay, here it is. I made, goddess salad from all time.

00:52:40:22 - 00:52:41:16
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:52:41:18 - 00:52:58:09
Speaker 1
Okay. So there are a lot. I made something from this restaurant I worked at for a decade in New York. What did I do for meal buco? Oh, it was like zucchini, with olive oil and parmesan. Palmer.

00:52:58:11 - 00:53:00:18
Speaker 2
Pine nuts. Okay. Yes.

00:53:00:20 - 00:53:09:12
Speaker 1
And then I made this gluten free pasta. Of course. You did. From the New York Times cookbook that I actually did not really know how to do. And my friend Amy had to come finish it.

00:53:09:12 - 00:53:10:03
Speaker 2
Thank you Amy.

00:53:10:03 - 00:53:17:05
Speaker 1
But it was like, what was it? Sardine. Anchovies.

00:53:17:07 - 00:53:17:14
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:53:17:14 - 00:53:21:17
Speaker 1
Kind of thing. Yes. And then I got, dessert.

00:53:21:23 - 00:53:22:23
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:53:23:01 - 00:53:25:20
Speaker 1
Okay. It was not very good, but it was. That's what it was.

00:53:25:20 - 00:53:28:01
Speaker 2
If you could do the dessert, if you get a mulligan on dessert.

00:53:28:07 - 00:53:29:02
Speaker 1
I could do dessert.

00:53:29:02 - 00:53:39:19
Speaker 2
Differently. Yes. For the ritual anniversary of my mother's death. Dessert? Your preferred dessert would be cupcakes, Okay, a particular flavor, and that's great.

00:53:39:19 - 00:53:41:05
Speaker 1
I like a vanilla cupcake.

00:53:41:06 - 00:53:42:10
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:53:42:12 - 00:53:44:15
Speaker 1
I don't know, it was fine. I don't care for dessert.

00:53:44:15 - 00:53:46:06
Speaker 2
Okay? You're not a big dessert person.

00:53:46:08 - 00:53:47:14
Speaker 1
No, no, I like dessert.

00:53:47:14 - 00:53:49:10
Speaker 2
You like dessert? But I feel like we.

00:53:49:15 - 00:53:50:07
Speaker 1
It was perfect.

00:53:50:08 - 00:53:52:12
Speaker 2
What is your mother's dessert growing up?

00:53:52:13 - 00:53:55:10
Speaker 1
Oh, my mom loved creme brulee.

00:53:55:12 - 00:53:58:06
Speaker 2
It's, No. I'm out. Yeah, it's not for me.

00:53:58:06 - 00:53:59:07
Speaker 1
That's sweet.

00:53:59:09 - 00:54:06:22
Speaker 2
It's just everything. The texture. I'm not. I'm not liking any part of it. It's fine. It's a fine dessert. But I would never order. I don't care for the top either.

00:54:07:01 - 00:54:13:05
Speaker 1
We used to go to this place in Florida where they did Bananas Foster. Okay, I had Bananas Foster.

00:54:13:05 - 00:54:14:08
Speaker 2
I have had.

00:54:14:09 - 00:54:15:17
Speaker 1
A flame at the table.

00:54:15:20 - 00:54:16:12
Speaker 2
Yes, the.

00:54:16:12 - 00:54:17:00
Speaker 1
Coolest thing.

00:54:17:00 - 00:54:26:11
Speaker 2
I've ever. It's very Mad Men. Yeah, kind of a vibe. You feel like real? Yes. Like we're getting a Waldorf. A Waldorf salad with that ambrosia, maybe.

00:54:26:11 - 00:54:28:06
Speaker 1
And steak and filet mignon.

00:54:28:08 - 00:54:28:18
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:54:28:22 - 00:54:35:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. Okay. What are the. What are you feel if I leave here? Yes. When you leave here, when I will. Sorry. Yeah.

00:54:36:02 - 00:54:47:15
Speaker 2
I mean, who knows who. No no no no no no no, it was really. Yeah. I have a guest room that I want to stay. You're allowed to. I'm not kicking you out.

00:54:47:17 - 00:54:56:07
Speaker 1
When I leave here. What? Is there a question that you were like? Oh, I didn't ask. I asked that question.

00:54:56:08 - 00:55:06:07
Speaker 2
Thank you. I what I had. I want to say that I got a lot of these questions you answered. Yeah. In the process. Yeah.

00:55:06:09 - 00:55:16:01
Speaker 1
Well the questions are a little bit like the pizza house. L like you follow the ingredients but they're going to, it's going to come out how it's going to come out.

00:55:16:03 - 00:55:19:10
Speaker 2
And then you're going to get a little bit thick with too much water.

00:55:19:12 - 00:55:26:16
Speaker 1
Well that's like the weirdest burn ever. Yeah. Start saying that. Yeah. Know you're a little bit your.

00:55:26:16 - 00:55:51:21
Speaker 2
Questions are kind of like the pizza. I how about this? How? Okay, here's the thing. The there is a sense this this is the only thing. I promise we're going to stop right after. Okay. And you mentioned kind of this also how grief was a superpower for you in a certain way. Yeah. Because it allowed you to, experience life in a whole different way.

00:55:51:21 - 00:56:19:00
Speaker 2
And, it was it was kind of like the tool where you were able to just be in life in a totally different way, authentically in what was happening. I'm wondering, is there a sense in our culture that people do not celebrate might be the wrong word, but like, really like enjoy the process of grieving, you know, and because it's kind of like, yeah, I have to I have to process my grief such that I can get beyond it.

00:56:19:00 - 00:56:37:19
Speaker 2
But my question that I would have been sad if I didn't ask is that in which ways are you honoring and celebrating the opportunities that grief has offered you just for yourself? It's not a Silver Linings Playbook like you find that. Find the good in this.

00:56:37:21 - 00:56:55:16
Speaker 1
Well, I think the very basic idea that, like what processing is in a lot of ways is feeling your feelings until they stop happening. Right. And in our culture we don't even get to that part. Right. So it's like

00:56:55:18 - 00:56:58:18
Speaker 2
Name it to tame it. What. Yeah.

00:56:58:20 - 00:57:16:05
Speaker 1
It's just so weird. It's like you I which it feels really good to be honest about how you actually feel. Yes. But I think that it's like often any feeling that we have has been like, oh, God, I have a feeling I'm going to buy something. But it's, you know, we're like, we're dodging them.

00:57:16:07 - 00:57:16:23
Speaker 2

00:57:17:01 - 00:57:50:00
Speaker 1
And so there's something I think that's so incredible in me now that I have faced so many of my own feelings. That I feel really strong in a really beautiful way. That feels kind of new. I have to say that I can say like, oh, it's my nature to be very present. It's not like a total surprise, but.

00:57:50:01 - 00:57:51:15
Speaker 2
The intensity of the grief.

00:57:51:16 - 00:58:14:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then I actually walk through it with a lot of grace, maybe more grace than was needed. Honestly, I wish I could make it bigger mess. But I walked through it. And so now I get to say like, oh, and also that when other people are suffering in any way, this is also always been my nature. But to just like be with them.

00:58:14:23 - 00:58:17:13
Speaker 1

00:58:17:15 - 00:58:20:04
Speaker 2
To not fix to not they can feel better.

00:58:20:04 - 00:58:28:20
Speaker 1
I don't want to, not myself as much. And I don't want to fix others as much. I want to really highlight that as much.

00:58:28:22 - 00:58:38:20
Speaker 2
Well you like projects but your projects are people working on. The people are not the project, their projects are the projects. So it's different. That's not like you're trying. Yes.

00:58:38:22 - 00:58:51:23
Speaker 1
No, I want to change people all the time, obviously. No, no, no, I don't think I'm something that needs to be fixed. I think I just feel like, oh, this is the experience of living and the absolutely beautiful experience it is.

00:58:52:01 - 00:58:53:18
Speaker 2
That's a nice place to stop.

00:58:53:20 - 00:58:55:00
Speaker 1
Thank you for the pizza.

00:58:55:03 - 00:59:04:13
Speaker 2
You're welcome. I'd like to bring you back another season when my gluten free pizza is, like, ready? Yeah, yeah. Ready to. Because this is the first time.

00:59:04:14 - 00:59:05:04
Speaker 1
Eat this.

00:59:05:05 - 00:59:17:06
Speaker 2
This is the first time. So next time you come back, it'll be. It'll be like, you'll get to see the evolution. And we can go back and look at the tape. Yeah. And compare all of the doughs. That's true. Yeah. This went really well. Thank you for coming.

00:59:17:07 - 00:59:18:14
Speaker 1
Thank you I appreciate you.

00:59:18:16 - 00:59:40:04
Speaker 2
Takeaways from Jen. First of all, the pizza was very interesting to me and I really want to speak to that because I was resistant and ambivalent towards making a gluten free pizza. And I'm glad that Jen's, dietary needs forced me to, like, learn new things, because I think there's something here and I'm looking forward to working with, gluten free pizza in the future.

00:59:40:04 - 01:00:03:14
Speaker 2
And maybe really coming up with something that is, is comparable to some of my favorite pizzas that I'm making. Okay. Now, it was a good talk about grief. I feel like we, we we got through the major ideas that I wanted to focus on. I wanted to hear, I wanted to hear Jen's experience with grief and kind of that story and how she processed it and how what she learned from it.

01:00:03:16 - 01:00:24:16
Speaker 2
And we got to do that, and I got to hear about this. The butcher paper projects that she did, this story that she told, in, in, in picture form as a way to process grief just sounded like an amazing idea to me. And, I just, I, I was really moved by that and, Yeah. And it was just it was it was good.

01:00:24:16 - 01:00:55:06
Speaker 2
I really also there's this other piece that stuck that I want to dig into more about the primal experience of grief and that being this, like, raw, experience that goes that is beyond emotion, even instinctual. We set about it and kind of that how that is such a, like a, a change event in a person's life to really change the way they, experience life in a, in a more fuller and a way that you can't avoid getting all the way into it.

01:00:55:06 - 01:01:03:16
Speaker 2
So I want to dig more into that. But, yeah, I thought it went. I thought it went really well. I was excited and I look forward to it, you know, you guys enjoying it?