The Personal Pizza Podcast

Simcha: [00:00:00] It is almost never the first line intervention. For you to recommend psychedelics. It would have to be an extreme situation before you would like break glass and start encouraging people.

Uri: There are some people that will come to me that their state of suffering is so intense and I will say that their brain is locked.

I think another interesting way to. Think about medicine, psychedelic medicine, is that it, it neurologically opens up the brain, right? There's a lot have been written about that, but some people that are in deep depression have been depressed for a long time, or are, you know, paralyzed by panic or anxiety.

Their brain is so locked that it's very difficult to do any work with them. The resistance to change is like 99.9%. And in those kind of situations I would recommend that they introduce a situation that can open it up. I'll usually try to do breath work with them just to see if there's any access and then usually I'll refer them to do a [00:01:00] journey.

Congratulations on the book. Thank you very much. Quick question, did you do this design, is this you or No, you hired a graphic

Simcha: designer for this.

Uri: Uh, the design is a picture, the painting is a painting of a friend of mine called Grant Pickoff, who's a painter. Okay. Okay. Um, and he gave me the painting and then a graphic design kind of finished it off.

Cool. Yeah. Who did you write this book for? I think that, you know, initially I wrote it for myself. Mm-hmm. Um, I wrote it basically coming out of a meditation retreat. And, um, it just came, uh, out of me in about three to four weeks. And as I was writing it and I was realizing that I was writing it for myself, I obviously wanted to share it with others so I start tweaking it a little bit.

But it's, I think both for professionals, for therapists and psychedelic guides. And it's also for, uh, people that are practitioners. They just want to explore [00:02:00] their inner world in various modalities, whether it be spiritual or psychedelic or therapy. This is kind of written for both ends. So

Simcha: therapists, right.

Clients,

Uri: yeah.

Simcha: Uh, therapists who are, have clients who are. Doing these, doing, uh, drugs on the weekend, doing medicine work, doing medicine work even better. Right. Um, and I, I wanna have this, I want let, let, why don't we start right there? Sure. Every, every medicine is a drug, but not every drug is in medicine.

And so when we talk about, um, we use the term medicine work, right? What do you consider, uh, to be a medicine in that context?

Uri: Um, yeah, I don't know. You know, it's a really interesting question. Eventually, the decision between medicine and drug is in the eye of the beholder. Mm-hmm. Right? It's a com it's a, it's just a word.

And, you know, [00:03:00] different cultures and different situations will have different meaning to that. So, I mean, you know, uh, sugar can be medicine, you know, and, and you know, so is lemon juice. Um, but speaking partic in particular about what we call drugs, um, they can be both, I guess. I guess they really make the distinction when we consume the substances, um, such as cannabis, um, psilocybin, uh, ketamine, um, you know, and, and many others.

When we consume them in a way that is more, uh, recreational and fun, I guess they will kind of fall under the category of drugs and whether we consume them in an attempt to expend consciousness. Okay. And. Sometimes, you know, that spectrum is, is [00:04:00] very dynamic, right? So it could be, we could go into a party and, and have some, and have a puff of cannabis and just be happy with a friend's density to music.

And then you just close your eyes for a second, listen to music. And you do would have, um, some kind of an inner experience that it goes beyond just a recreational. So it's not really a black and white thing. That is more, I think politics and, um, just cultural perception that decide whether those substances are drugs or medicine in.

Mm-hmm.

Simcha: So three, I'm hearing three categories. Sure. Uh, recreational. Mm-hmm. And then kind of the other extreme is like ceremonial or spiritual. Sure. And then therapeutic feels like somewhere in the middle. Yeah. Kind of pulling from both sides.

Uri: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I guess, you know, I guess that's kind of like also what my book is trying to [00:05:00] talk about, maybe not directly for me, that that category was more between psychotherapy and spirituality.

That, for me took a really long time to find where do those, those two meet. Um, so yeah, I, I love that distinction.

Simcha: I, I wanted to ask you about that because often people come to therapists and have spiritual issues or existential questions. How, what is the, what is, how do you see the scope of practice or your scope of competence around spirituality?

Because a lot of times it's like, well, you should go ask your rabbi or your priest or your imam and you know, get outta my office. 'cause they can't answer that question.

Uri: But there is crossover, right? Absolutely. So first of all, I think that everybody has existential issues. And everybody that comes to my office with, uh, therapeutic, uh, problems, let's say, you know, usually they come with [00:06:00] the depression or anxiety or some relational issue.

Um, but I always make the assumption that underneath it there is an existential problem. The only question if there are, uh, capable to, uh, be aware of it or if it is just covered with many, many layers of psychological problems. Okay, so I'll just start with that. Regarding my competence. So I guess I see myself both as a therapist and as a spiritual advisor or teacher, however you wanna call that, to whatever extent my spiritual understanding has reached at any given time.

And I do make a distinction between spirituality and religion. Okay, so if I send my client to talk to the rabbi or talk to their imam or priest, which frankly never happens, you know, it's, [00:07:00] um, I see religion as, uh, beliefs, right? As a system of beliefs where spirituality and the way I see it and the way I've kind of been trained to see it, is actually removing beliefs.

Mm. Yes. Does that make sense? It's the

Simcha: undoing of processes,

Uri: undoing beliefs.

Simcha: So if religion is beliefs and rituals, yeah. Right? Yeah. Spirituality, you, I actually liked you had a good definition of it. Curious, inward gazing, open perspective.

Uri: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which will eventually undermine beliefs.

Simcha: Right. Well, I, I also wanted, uh, I.

Uh, one of the things that I learned from you, there's two big things I've learned from you, right. The first is, I'll talk about that later. But the second thing is, um, the idea that, that you got me to turn me onto this, uh, true meditation mm-hmm. Uh, audio book. And, um, over, over [00:08:00] there in this idea of meditative inquiry as taught by ti, there is a, um, this really interesting idea of that.

Who are we? And we find out who we are in the process of figuring out who we're not. Mm-hmm. And so we're in this act of negation that Right. We, a thought is just a thought, I am not my thoughts. Right. And then, and then he goes through feelings and then he comes to beliefs. And that really sticks with him because so much of us, so much of our personality is, which is also a thing that we are not Right.

I don't, and we'll get to ego in a second to third chapter. Every book, which I dug, um. Beliefs are just, you know, more organized thoughts that are somehow thicker and have more dimension. Um, whereas spirituality is not a belief, spirituality is a process. Right. How do you,

Uri: right. Yeah. I mean, I guess the idea of spirituality can become a belief, right?

Just [00:09:00] like new ageism become new, it can be co-opted region, right? By the ego. Yeah. But spirituality, and you know, as far as I understand, ADE Ashanti, and the way I also interpret that is a process. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's a process of looking. Yeah. And trying to see the world as it is, rather than see the world through a particular lens that we acquired at some point in our development.

And I'm not saying the beliefs are a bad thing. They're val, they can be values neutral. Yeah. I mean, you know, like the belief, for instance, that we should not murder other people. Sounds good. Is a, is a good belief, you know, but, uh, it's a belief nonetheless, there'll be many situations in the world and cultures a geographical location where that belief is not really practiced.

Mm-hmm. And sometimes for really good reason. So beliefs are not a bad thing, but a lot of the people that I get to see, and I include myself in that category, that [00:10:00] experience suffering, um, are confined by set of beliefs about themselves and about the world and about others, and about their self-worth.

Mm-hmm. And it's just, it, it's an engine of endless cyclical patterns of pain. Right? Yeah.

Simcha: And so

Uri: spirituality is the process of unwinding. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And people will at, at, at that point in that process, people will often take exits, you know? Mm-hmm. So, me personally, when, you know, when I started spirituality, I was from the get go, uh, interested in, I want enlightenment, not really understanding what it was at the time.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, that idea is developed, but, um, I want to go all the way. Um, many of the people that I work with, they're not interested in that. They just wanna stop being in pain. Correct. So we will work with a few beliefs and [00:11:00] they'll take the exit whenever they're ready, when they have undone mm-hmm.

When they have undone enough beliefs, um, they can stop and they can kind of go back to their regular life with less heaviness. Yes, yes.

Simcha: Um, you have, I, I wanna just go over some terms that you use that I think are fun and, um. So we discussed, uh, medicine. And in the context of that, I guess I want to want to talk about, do you, so when we think about, uh, the drugs that clients are asking us, I get calls regularly from people asking me whether or not they should drink ayahuasca.

Just people randomly approach me on the street. Right. As if I have that answer for them. Um, I get asked about, I guess it's in your

Uri: look.

Simcha: Yeah, I have, yes. Um, it, people want to, it's mostly ayahuasca and psilocybin that people ask questions about. And I noticed in your book you make a distinction between organic compounds, right?[00:12:00]

Which comes from the earth, uh, which would be like cannabis, psilocybin, um, uh, peyote. Sure. If, if you can get it and let me know if you can, and, um. Uh, yeah. Ayahuasca, which is made from a, a, a, a bevy of plants mixed together. Right. And then synthetic compounds, which is, you know, the party drugs or MDMA.

Uri: Mm-hmm.

Simcha: Um, ketamine, ketamine, uh, 3M MC, certain types of DMTI think, or synthetic. Sure. Uh, do you make a huge distinction in your practice? Do you say, do you tell people go natural? Do you tell people? No,

Uri: no. I mean, first of all, I, I, I believe, I believe I see, I, I make the assumption that I have very limited saying what people are gonna do, right.

So if somebody comes to me and they're telling me, you know, I really want to use Ketamine or cannabis or MDMA, I'm not gonna convince them not to do [00:13:00] it unless there is like a really clear danger for them. But I don't really make a distinction between those two, however. I find that there are some differences between organic compounds and more synthetic compounds.

Um, I'm not sure why there is a difference. I mean, I can stipulate all kind of medical reasons, but I think that organic compounds also have a lot more history. And I don't know if you're familiar with the, the ideas of mantras, right. So, uh, mantras, especially in Tibetan Buddhism and in tantra and Hindu, Hindu tantra are considered words that don't necessarily have meanings.

But people have been saying them for so long, they're, they're considered to be living vehicles. Right. So the word itself word the mantra itself, it's a well seasoned word Right, exactly. Has

Simcha: acquired meaning and acquired,

Uri: yeah.

Simcha: Uh, heft.

Uri: Yeah. [00:14:00] Just in the same way of like our, you know, common Jewish tradition, you know, certain prayers, um, have an an energetic.

Load to them. Mm-hmm. Because people have been saying them for a very long time with a certain intention. Mm-hmm. And organic compounds, I find them have existed for such a long time. And as humanity, we've been practicing with them for such a long time that they have beyond just the, um, uh, the molecule itself and beyond, let's say called the spirit of the plant that some people believe exists, the practice of that plant has a certain load to it in process of more of these synthetic substance that are fairly new.

Correct. Let's say a hundred, 150 years

Simcha: max. Right? Yeah. Max. Right. Some of them are, uh, you know, a hundred years old. Yeah. Right. And I've only been used by cool people for less than that. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the, what I like about synthetic [00:15:00] drugs that I feel, 'cause there is a natural fallacy, right. We think that it just becomes, it comes from the ground.

It is therefore safer. Right. Right. Which is not true. Not at all. Right. Organic pesticides are equally as poisonous as Right. Synthetic pesticides. Sure. That's why they're called pesticides. 'cause they're, their job is to, to to kill. Right. Arsenic will kill you. Right. Uh, cyanide is naturally occurring. Sure.

And, um, and there's a reliability to pharmaceuticals that, um, you know what I mean? Like Absolutely. So a hundred milligrams ketamine is a hundred milligrams Ketamine. That's, that's gonna hit exactly, exactly how you want it to. Right, right. Whereas I think like the, the ayahuasca brew or the mushroom can be psilocybin can be so chaotic in how strong it is or how potent Absolutely.

Uri: Yeah. I mean, we also have to include the, the individual as a factor in the sudden setting as a factor. Mm-hmm. Whether you use synthetics or whether we use organic compounds. You know, a [00:16:00] person can have two grams of mushrooms, the same type of mushrooms, two weeks in a row, in the same room, and have a completely different experience.

Right, right. Um, yeah, it's really hard to say, but I would also say it's true about ketamine, right?

Simcha: Yes. It's always landing differently. Well, I wanna talk, could you, you talk about that you, you, you, you actually give a number of factors for dosing. I wanna actually add a couple, but we'll get there. Sure.

Okay. So that's medicine. We covered medicine. I feel good about that. Just naming, naming the word medicine, because it's a, it's a funny term. Uh, a, uh, ceremony Yes. Is something we should talk about. Sure. So this is a, this is a different, this is a whole separate category besides there's recreational, um, you know, going to, uh, a concert or, uh, going to a museum.

Or hanging out with friends on a Saturday night. And then there is the therapeutic version, which is, you know, you could do, uh, with a guide or you go to Oregon and, uh, take a psilocybin with a [00:17:00] therapist. Right. You could do that in Canada or Jamaica or whatever. And then there is a ceremony, right. Which seems like that could be a couple different substances.

Right, right. Peyote, ayahuasca, mushrooms, even cannabis. Even cannabis. Okay. So what is, how do you, what is, what is the ceremony and, and uh,

Uri: yeah, I guess the way I understand it is ceremony is, uh, a more, a shamanic, uh, process where there is usually a healer or a guide. There is some kind of figure that is managing the ceremony.

Usually that person has a very personal relationship with those substances and they would, um, create a situation where healing can occur. Or, and again, healing is also a term, right? Sometimes the healing can be relationships. Sometimes the healing can be about grief. Sometimes the healing can be about physical condition.[00:18:00]

So I think that maybe the focus in ceremony moves to the plant as, as an entity or spirit, right? Whereas recreationally, it's just about us, right? And, you know, in a psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, it's a combination between the individual and the therapist and the, and the substance. And it's kind of a, the individual is trying to do something.

Mm-hmm. And then in ceremony, it's like the individual, you just sit down and lie down and the medicine is gonna, or the shaman is gonna be taking care of the issue. Right. And it has a certain rules. Mm-hmm. Um, there's a certain process. Um, yeah. Yeah.

Simcha: And then a journey. I think most people know what that is.

You have an interesting term that you use in your book. You talk about the veil. Yeah. Um, with the kind of the barrier between conscious and unconscious. That, that [00:19:00] in, in, when working with clients kind of are playing with that. Can you speak to that for me? The

Uri: veil Yeah. I find fascinating, right. I, and I can really see it at this point with people very well.

There are people that are, oh, let's, let's say that there is a stage in, in development where we are just in what I'll call ordinary consciousness. So I'm here and now and I'm experiencing thoughts, I'm experiencing feelings, and there is not much in, there's not much awareness to what's going on in the background.

Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes there is even no knowledge that there is a background. Yeah. And what separate ordinary consciousness from whatever happening in the background, let's say behind me, underneath me is the veil. The veil is both a concept, but it's a real thing. And some the, some of the veils for people will be very [00:20:00] opaque, meaning there is absolutely no penetration.

And then some people have some holes in the veil. For instance, somebody who is tend to be more psychotic will just naturally have a lot of holes in the way. In the, in this veil there's thoughts and images and, uh, hallucination that just permeates their regular ordinary consciousness. And there are some people that just, um, have a very flexible capacity to close their eyes and start seeing images, or they can become aware of certain thoughts, patterns that before they weren't.

And you can also see the veil in the process of just falling asleep. Mm-hmm. As you are just lying in bed and you thinking through your day and then slowly feels like you start to fade away and things start showing up. Um, there could be this, um, I forgot the terms of, you know, what, what we call the dreams that show up just before you [00:21:00] fall asleep there.

That's a certain type of dream. There's hypo go and, and hypo ic dreams. So there's dreams that show up in the morning just before you become fully conscious. And there are dreams that appear just before you fall asleep at night or two terms for that. That's another way you can really notice that the veil is like, it's a real thing to me, whether it is a neurological structure.

Mm-hmm. I'm sure there are some correlates to that, or it's more of a spiritual thing. It's difficult for me to say. Mm-hmm. But yeah, it exists. Okay.

Simcha: Uh, I also like the way, can you, let's talk about intimacy for a second because you kind of, you throw it out, but I, uh, what does intimacy mean to you and how does it come into context?

How does it work in the context of your work with clients and then when clients Yeah. Come to integrate their journeys?

Uri: Yeah. Yeah. I guess I see intimacy as the capacity to connect. So we can, let's imagine that all of us present in this room. There [00:22:00] are, uh, there are tubes between us of connection, and in those tubes there is passage of information.

The, the information can be words, verbal words, that information can be smells. Mm-hmm. That information can be ideas, that information can be, um, touch that information can be any mode of communication. The, in spiritual communities is also what's called like, um. Direct perception or presence, direct teaching or just the presence of the teacher is sufficient to communicate something.

So intimacy is, um, I guess how clear the pipe is between you and me. Mm. Right. And often, I mean, from, for anybody, the, the pipe has a lot of blockages in it. Okay. So, for me personally, you know, growing up in Israel as a, as a male Jewish, [00:23:00] um, it's a very blocked pipe. Yeah. In some ways, you know, in some ways in, in other ways.

You know, my, my pipe was way more open compared to many Americans that I would meet. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, but there are certain beliefs and ideas about myself and about you and about the environment that we live in that prevents the, a really open communication. Um, can we touch each other? Can we hug? Can we kiss on the cheeks?

Can we tell each other secrets? Mm-hmm. Um, can we share emotions and thoughts? So I guess that intimacy, the more intimacy we have as a spectrum mm-hmm. That pipe, that connection is just clearer. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Simcha: Uh, and that's something you are, when a client is first coming to you either for, uh, just psychotherapy or, or, um, integration.

Yeah. How do you, um, is intimacy something you're looking at their level of intimacy? Sure.

Uri: Right?

Simcha: Yeah.

Uri: Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely like a primary [00:24:00] assessment. Mm-hmm. So from the moment I walk through the door, um, I always try to touch. Mm-hmm. So I, I usually go very, uh, light about it, just try to shake hands mm-hmm.

And feel how comfortable they are with shaking hand. Um. Uh, talking about their emotion, the way they hold themself, their body. Uh, most of my clients sit on the couch. Mm-hmm. And it's interesting to see, I usually sit like right over there in that corner. Yeah. And I'm, it's, it's really interesting. Some clients are gonna sit on the farther side of the couch.

Correct. Some clients gonna sit in the center mm-hmm. And some really close to me, and so we're

Simcha: gonna sit in the corner and

Uri: hold a pillow. Right. Yeah, absolutely. It's so funny. Right. And, um, yeah, I look for a lot of intimacy, the way they speak about themself, not just intimacy with me, but also intimacy with themselves.

Mm-hmm. Right. Which is, wait, can you explain that? So, I see the world, our experience of the world is a correlate [00:25:00] between inner and outer reality. The way I usually treat people on the outside is, is, uh. Is a complete correlate to the way I treat myself on the inside, we can talk about parts work, uh, parts work, which is, um, uh, internal family system and modality of psychotherapy.

So if I'm in relationship to my psychological parts and I'm capable of listening to them, I'm capable of interacting with them. It also usually means that I have the capacity to be interacting with people on the outside. So can I be intimate with my parts? Can I be intimate with other peoples? Can I be intimate with my soul?

Mm-hmm. Can I be intimate with God, et cetera, et cetera.

Simcha: Right.

Uri: So it's kind of, uh, intimacy is generalizable.

Simcha: Absolutely. Yeah.

Uri: Yeah.

Simcha: It's a process. Yeah. Another thing you said you looked for and you said this was the most important thing you look for when working with a client. And uh, I never heard another therapist say that, is that you're looking for earnestness.

Right. [00:26:00] And, um, can you please explain to me the importance of being earnest? And why in therapy and integration work, that is a critical component.

Uri: Yeah. The first time I heard the term was I think through Ade Ashanti, but he was speaking about Ni Maharaj who was a pretty famous, uh, Indian sage. And, and then I saw reading about it.

I was like, some, somehow the word really got stuck in my mind, like, what does it actually mean? And, and the way I've stood it so far is that earnestness is when somebody is really, genuinely interested in something to the extent that just cannot stop to pursue it, right? Mm-hmm. So I have, for instance, I have many clients that come because their spouse told them that they have to come, or their mother told 'em that they have to come or they're about to lose their job if they're, these are the worst clients, by [00:27:00] the way.

These are the clients that I refer out. Well, they start like that. You know, you will accept these clients. It depends. Okay. It depends. It depends. It really depends. Mm-hmm. And yeah, it's really cool to see those people come in and then flip. Okay. Because something can happen with them. They will actually discover that they do want this.

But I guess if we can call earnestness is, uh, how much do I really want something and why do I want it? Is it coming from me, which is true earnestness, or is it something that is coming as an external reason? But I have to say, you know, that my, my journey in psychotherapy didn't start because I wanted to get better.

Mm-hmm. I just didn't want to suffer. Correct. Right. And, and suffering was causing issues. I had jealousies in relationship. I had difficulty with money. I had difficulty a relationship with substances. Amen. Yeah. You know, it came later. Let's dive into the [00:28:00] ego. Sure.

Simcha: And I like the way you, uh, you talk about the particles of the ego and kind of with regards to ego formation

Uri: Hmm.

Simcha: And everything we're saying Now, we could also use in, if we wanted to use internal family systems and talk about the creation of a part.

Uri: Sure.

Simcha: And so, but, uh, I, like, I, so you start with, it's like sensations, perceptions, patterns of recognition, and then it's just like this, these, these things connecting and then all of a sudden they're, a story begins to develop.

Is that how you see ego coming on? How do you see ego coming online?

Uri: Um, it's a moving thing for me. Right. So as, as, as time passes, I. I see different sides of it. I think one of the most interesting things to see ego is, uh, if you have had a, um, [00:29:00] what I'll call a massive psychedelic experience, which I had and, and a, a psychedelic experience that include what most people call ego death, which I'll name more ego pause than ego death.

Just like

Simcha: an hour long or 15 minutes long,

Uri: however long it lasts. Okay. So by that you

Simcha: mean you forgot who you were?

Uri: Yep.

Simcha: You forgot the story of Kugel. Yeah, absolutely. Great last name by the way. Thank you. My favorite last name. Right? I knew I would like you found

Uri: out. Your last name is K. There's an interesting story behind it.

Yeah.

Simcha: What's the story?

Uri: Uh, the story is that, um, our originally family name was called Druker, which is another Jewish name, and that, uh, ancestor who was in Poland, um, during the proms in the, uh, kind of late 18 hundreds. He basically was serving in the Russian military. And he, uh, basically opened the armory and gave Jews rifles to protect himself.

Okay. And he was sentenced to death [00:30:00] by court martial and he, um, the Jews wanted to save him, so they gave him a passport of a dead Jewish guy. His last name was gel. Mm-hmm. And he got that name and ran out of Poland and eventually ended up in, in the, the holy land. And he decided to keep the name because it saved his life.

It saved his life. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Simcha: You had a experience of ego death, and then in the process of rebuilding, as the ego began to coalesce and form again, that's when you got to see it from what it's

Uri: Yeah. Yeah. You can start, and again, I had previous, uh, glimpses of what ego is and how ego, uh, works, but, and in the psychedelic experience of ego, pause, ego, death.

As it start to come back together, you can really see that, oh my God, it's a process. It's not just this entity. Most of the time we just wake up in the morning and then we have a relationship with ourself, right? Which is just the tip of the iceberg of what the ego is. Um, and that relationship with [00:31:00] ourself, sometimes positive, sometimes negative, and sometime it's somewhere in the middle.

But when you experience ego death and you start to see it becoming, it's such an interesting phenomena, especially if you have a kind of psychological lens. Mm-hmm. First or is sensations. And then you know, the awareness of sensations, awareness of sensations, awareness of colors, awareness of sounds, awareness.

'cause you have

Simcha: had an experience with psychedelics where there was, you went beyond sensation.

Uri: Yeah. There's no sensations.

Simcha: There was nothing. You were just in some alternate reality and then all of a sudden you started to feel cold or you started to hear a sound.

Uri: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You can, if you go deep and deep and deep and deep and deepen up, and there's different ways of doing it.

I mean, medicine psychedelics are one way of doing it. Mm-hmm. Um, but you know, if you go into, for instance, Tibetan Buddhism, um, they use a lot of techniques with sensor deprivation. They use darker treats where somebody would close [00:32:00] themself up in a room for many, many days. And

Simcha: you have done this yourself?

Uri: I've done some of it. I haven't done long periods of time. I've done only a couple of days. But you spent a couple

Simcha: of days in the dark.

Uri: Yeah. And um, it's amazing what you will start seeing how the brain or whatever you want to call the vehicle by which the ego operates. Would just generate things.

Simcha: Hold on one second.

Uri: Yeah, I just, I wanna

Simcha: pause here.

Uri: Yeah.

Simcha: How did, where did you go to the bathroom? How did you negotiate that?

Uri: There is an entire, um, tradition. There's a, there's a tradition, there is an a book, uh, called Y Lama in Tibetan Buddhism that is actually describing the entire practice and all the logistical preparations and how a room should be made.

And, you know, there is a rope going from the bed to the bathroom, Uhhuh, there's a rope from the bed to the place where you're gonna get your food. There is always a cedar, there is a mechanism there. It's like

Simcha: in Minority [00:33:00] report when Tom Cruise gets his eyes redone. Yeah. And he has one is to the totally, one is for the, the refrigerator and the other is to the bathroom.

Yeah. That's where they got it from. Yes.

Uri: I never thought about that, but actually I wonder, I wonder there's a connection, you know,

Simcha: so you spent three days in the dark,

Uri: two

Simcha: days in the dark, two days in the dark. And at a certain point you began to see. See things

Uri: Yeah. Very quickly. Yeah. You start seeing things, you start seeing, um, very similar perception to what you'll see actually on mushrooms.

Mm-hmm. Um, the veil becomes thinner. Right. The, there, there are holes that start appearing in the veils and, you know, what we call the unconsciousness or different dimensions of reality would just become a lot more evident. Mm-hmm. The ego, you can think about the ego also as a way of filtering reality.

It's a mechanism that filters reality in the same way that an operating system of a computer creates an [00:34:00] environment in which certain applications can operate. But if you, you know, remove windows from your computer, you'll just get chaos. Mm-hmm. Off numbers.

Simcha: So by altering the environment, which in could be through ingesting, uh, synthetic or, or organic compound, or through just taking away sound and taking away light Right.

And taking away anything to do,

Uri: sure. The

Simcha: ego will, uh, dissolve because it has nothing to do.

Uri: Yeah. It will be impaired. You can also, or illness, any, any condition that will basically mess with the homeostasis of the body. Mm. For instance, when you have fever, fever dreams, yes. That's, you know, the ego essentially is impaired.

It does not operate, the body doesn't give enough resources for the nervous system to operate the ego. At this point, all the energy is going to the immune system or just keeping your heart beating your, your, your lungs [00:35:00] breathing, your heart beating your, your lungs breathing, and the ego just, it's just not, there's bugs.

You know, and things start coming through. Mm-hmm.

Simcha: This is kind of what you said. You said that the, uh, the nemesis of ego is impermanence or chaos.

Uri: Right.

Simcha: Or change.

Uri: Sure.

Simcha: Um, and that, is that because the ego is focused on survival? Is that, what is the why is, why do those, why are they in, uh, in conflict?

Uri: Yeah.

I guess, I guess as a living species, uh, you know, the, the primary directive of the ego is survival. And then second directive is like, do not change. Especially if you got something that is works for survival. Right. And, um, and I think that's true when we're children and then at some point at some age, and it really changes from one person to another.

The [00:36:00] ego begins to be invested in itself. So initially the ego is invested in the body or in just the experience of life, right? And then food, sleep, food, sleep, play, pleasure, right? It's a very simple functions. And then at some point, the ego begins to be invested in itself as a structure. Okay? So a name and a story, and who I am and what I do, and what I do not do, and what is my group and what is not my group.

And the eagle likes to know who it is and how does the world operate. And in order to do that, you need to have a very stable, um, self structure, which unfortunately is inherently unstable, but the ego does not like that at all. So what happens to most people in life is that there is a constant, um, attempt to patch this thing up and [00:37:00] keeps it standing.

And because the nature of reality is constant change, it's never really able to do that.

Simcha: So this is like the airplane is taken off and now we're trying to fix the airplane as we're flying around. That is what the ego is. Sure. Trying to prevent just total collapse and a calamity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about resistance to change because uh, that's kind of where you go to next in the, in the book.

And, um, how do you, how do you see resistance, um, in the therapy world or in, people talk about they are res having a bad trip or something, they're resisting the experience or in relationships. How do you see resistance and then, yeah, talk to me about it.

Uri: Yeah. Resistance to change. You can see resistance to change.

In many dimensions. Um, one of the easiest place to see that is in the body. So often if you see [00:38:00] people, uh, and I'm including myself in that category, who are undergoing a psychedelic experience, especially when you start working with more organic compounds. Not only, but you see it a lot with mushrooms and you also see it a lot with ayahuasca.

There's often stuff that the body's trying to do. Um, so like

Simcha: purging or phlegm is coming up, or in the bathroom. Yeah. It could be dead, but it also

Uri: could be just, you know, the person, there's shakes and trembling. Mm-hmm. And it almost appears like something is trying to move out of the body. And there'll be a very big difference between somebody who's lying very still and trying to keep it together and somebody who is enabling themself to shake it out or, or do the rolling, you know, mushrooms often comes with what perceive to be a rolling motions, and some people don't want to do it and they, they really fight it.

And some people are capable of like allowing it to happen. For instance, change, uh, resistant to change. You can see [00:39:00] in, um, you know, in relationship with children, you would never, you would never eat candy after dinner. Mm-hmm. Whereas, you know, sometimes she's gonna eat a candy after dinner. It's just, you know, kids.

Yeah. Um, you can see changing to, I remember maybe 10 years ago, one day my wife, she comes, you know, home and she says, I think I wanna go vegetarian. Mm-hmm. And I got so angry. Yeah. You know, because why are you doing that to me? Mm-hmm. You know, I don't want to go vegetarian. I don't want to have to start cooking, you know, a whole other thing.

What about my meat and what about my chicken? And it's, it's so much built into us not wanting things to be different that it takes a lot of unwinding

Simcha: Yeah.

Uri: To, um, let it happen. And I see a lot of clients in psychotherapy, uh, resistant to the change in their story. Mm-hmm. So people tend to be very invested with the narrative.

[00:40:00] I'm really depressed and I'm very sad and nobody likes me and I'm never gonna get better. And I tried everything. And, and then, you know, 30 minutes into the session they tell you a joke and they kind of snap out of the depression. Mm-hmm. For a second, you know that. Yes. Yes. And then they tell you a joke, and then the joke finish, and then they go back into this guy mm-hmm.

Who's like playing this character. Yes. To some he really believes in it. And, and as a psychotherapist, standing on the side, sitting on the side and watching it, you can really see that he has the ability to switch between those two people. Mm-hmm. And he really want to stay with this guy. There is resistance to switching.

Yeah. Spontaneously.

Simcha: So, and resistance is a process to undo. Is that, is that, I, I think I have a quote from you. What? Oh no. Excuse me. This is an awakening and enlightenment.

Uri: Right.

Simcha: This has to do with also your idea of undoing beliefs, right? Yeah. It's a diffusion process Sure. Rather than adding on Yeah.

Addition by subtraction. [00:41:00]

Uri: Yeah,

Simcha: yeah,

Uri: yeah. Addition, which is not made by us.

Simcha: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we're not in the, in, in therapy and certainly in, in, in journey work, I'm guessing. Mm-hmm. It's, you're not teaching on, on one level. You're not teaching new skills to people. You're trying to help people like unlearn everything they've ever learned.

Uri: I guess I'm trying to teach them skills that will enable them to do that better.

Simcha: Right. Because you do have, you recommend that people are, before they start doing psychedelic work, that they be a certain, uh, they have like meditation practice.

Uri: Sure.

Simcha: Right. Um, they have, people have to be ready for the experience.

Uri: Absolutely. Yeah. Meditation practice, being able to work with, uh, self-perception. Mm-hmm. Understanding what is identity. Yeah. Understanding what are psychological parts, um, understanding how they construct reality. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um,

Simcha: but they should have an understanding of those things,

Uri: some [00:42:00] level of understanding Right.

Before they

Simcha: rattle the cage.

Uri: Yeah. Otherwise, it's just like you're, especially if you work with psychedelic, it's like somebody gives you a Lamborghini and you just, you do not know how to drive. Right. And this car is just gonna launch you and, um. I mean, it could be dangerous, but it's, it's not, I'm not really concerned about that.

I'm just really concerned about people just having an experience that they wouldn't know what to do with it.

Simcha: Yes.

Uri: Or it will just really confuse them.

Simcha: It's destabilizing and they don't know what to do with it, and therefore it just, they go back to their regular life. I'm like, that was a weird bubble of an experience.

Right. And now here I am and I'm an accountant.

Uri: There could be that too. And there could also be an experience such as, um, you know, I had a psychedelic experience and in that the experience I discovered that I actually have a past life of a murderer or mm-hmm. I discovered that I'm actually a spiritual teacher and now they [00:43:00] start living life with a new identity, but it's just an identity as the one that existed before.

If they don't have the skills to actually see what identity are. See through identity, through through identity, then they, that's something they're wearing. They just get hypnotized into a whole other thing again. And Okay, let's spend another five years working on this identity. Right. You know? Oh boy. And in the meantime, right.

They left their wife. 'cause now I'm not viewing my entire, you know. No, it's, I mean, it's, that's what we do. Yeah.

Simcha: Um, how, okay, so a person comes into your office and they are depressed or anxious. Um, how many things are you going to recommend they do? Before you would say, like, maybe you should consider finding, uh, yourself, uh, on the couch with some mushrooms.

If you could say, let's talk about exercise, uh, uh, psychiatrist, psychiatry. What is your, what is your order of operations? [00:44:00] Um, before you say like, okay, you're ready. You ready? Or, okay, you should try it.

Uri: It really depends from one person to another. Right? So somebody that comes with medication is a whole class of thing compared to somebody who comes without medication because if you take psychotropic medication, there could be some complications if you take psychedelics, right?

Correct. Correct. But generally speaking, when I work with people, I want to see them doing some, I want to see them, if I want to give them an opportunity to experience some change before they're really capable of, um, before they're gonna be ready to inject a medicine into the process. So, for example, I ask almost all my clients to do, to start doing Wim Hof.

Mm-hmm. Which is a series of breath work. And it's incredible to see how many people don't wanna do that and avoid doing it because it requires effort and it brings some [00:45:00] sensations in the body. So I want to see them being able to experience somatic experiences to have some physical changes in the body.

And then usually later on I'll do an actual breath work session with them, which is a lot more intense, about an hour of breath work session where um, they will have some profound experiences in their body and I want to, uh, be sure that they're capable of experiencing that because if any psychedelic medication is gonna bring stuff out of the body, and if you don't have some minimal skills of learning how to work with it, um, you're gonna have a rough ride, especially if you have trauma.

Right. And all the clients I see have usually a lot of trauma. Yes. Yeah, that's one thing I really want to have my clients to be able to do some meditation. Um, just to be able to sit down five, 10 minutes, whether it's guided or a body scan, or focusing on an object or [00:46:00] counting their breath, just to be able to, um, develop some introspection.

What else? Um,

and I also usually wanna see them for anywhere between four to eight weeks. Okay. Because there are some patterns in people that are difficult to see unless you see them for quite some time. How do they respond to conflict? How do they manage anger? Do they have emotions? Do they have access to sadness?

Do they have access to anger? Do they have capacity to, uh, you know, diffuse conflicts with their coworkers or their families? So I just want to see how they operate, how their ego operates, usually because in the, in the psychedelic journeys, all of that stuff is gonna be amplified a thousand times. And so to make sure that it's an, an [00:47:00] effective process for them.

Yeah, I kind of wanna see all of that.

Simcha: But it's so, it, it is almost never the, uh, first line intervention for you to recommend psychedelics. It would have to be an extreme situation before you would like break glass and start, uh, giving out, uh, you know, encouraging people.

Uri: There are some people that will come to me that their state of suffering is so intense and they, and I will say that their brain is locked.

Okay? Mm-hmm. So, um, I think another interesting way to think about medicine, psychedelic medicine is that it, it neurologically opens up the brain, right? There's a, a lot have been written about that. And, but some people that are in deep depression have been depressed for a long time, or are, you know, paralyzed by panic or anxiety.

Their brain is so locked that it's very difficult to do any work with them. Um, the, the resistance to change is [00:48:00] like 99.9%. And in those kind of situations I would recommend that they, um, introduce a situation that can open that up. I'll usually try to do breath work with them, um, just to see if there is any access.

And then usually I'll refer them to do, um, a journey. Um, and again, there's a lot of modalities sometimes depends on the individual and what's going on. Sometimes I'll refer them to do a ketamine session. Mm-hmm. Um, hopefully with, uh, psychiatrists of somebody that really knows what they're doing and not just one of those, uh, ketamine clinics that are really proliferating today.

And in my opinion, it actually causing a lot of damage. Yeah. Um, it's a whole other conversation

Simcha: just because you're saying people go to a ketamine clinic and they get a Ketamine iv and then they get in their car and drive home. That's just, that's the whole thing. There's no, well, well, they, they're just

Uri: sitting mostly alone in a room listening to [00:49:00] music or watching something on a tv.

And there is kind of like an, an understanding that this is, um, uh, a medication that you take that is gonna help you and the medication is gonna do the jump for you and, uh, come back in six weeks for your next shots. Understood. Yeah. Which is kind of beating the purpose of change, right? There's no, yeah.

There's no earnestness.

Simcha: Ah,

Uri: yeah. Right.

Simcha: So you spend a lot of time in your book, you go through some different types of, of medicines that you've worked with and that your clients have worked with. And one of the things, uh, one of the medicines that, or you call it a medicine. Uh, is cannabis mm-hmm. And which is legal in California recreationally.

Right. And, um, everybody's high all the time here. Right. And, um, I'm wonder what is the, so there is a window where cannabis is helpful to people, and I'm wondering [00:50:00] where, what is that window for you?

Uri: Yeah, it's very personal. I mean, it's, it changes from one person to another. I think one of the interesting things about cannabis is to see how different people respond to it. Right. So, um, again, cannabis is a really big category to a plant. There is so many different subtypes and different concentrations of THC and CB.

D. And, um, I actually had a friend when I was doing my master degree in Leiden, who was, uh, doing his PhD on cannabis. And he was focused on, um, researching all the other compounds. There are thousands of other compounds, some of them psychoactive. We have no idea what they're doing besides THD beside THC.

So it's a very complex plant, and I personally believe, and there's also other tradition that that plant has an actual active spirit. Okay. So[00:51:00]

cannabis can be amazing. I mean, you can give it, you can give it to somebody who has like an alcohol abuse issues and they're off alcohol. You know, there might be now, you know, smoking pot every day, but pot can be a lot more friendly to the user compared to what alcohol does to you in life. I agree.

Right? If we

Simcha: talk about safer cannabis, a hundred percent safer than alcohol. Yeah.

Uri: Yes. And, but it's, it's a very seductive plan. It's psychologically super addicting. Um, and it, if you use it for enough time, it's also physiological addicting. I can definitely share it with you that, you know, there are periods in my life where getting off cannabis was like a thing

Simcha: because I, anything that you get pleasure from,

Uri: anything

Simcha: you get pleasure from, you're gonna get the, you're gonna get the, it's gonna fire together and wire together.

And now the dopaminergic pathway is just, you're plugged in, you're getting your dopamine through cannabis, and now you want it, you want your dopamine hit.

Uri: Well, it's, there's that element too. It's also, uh, cannabis for me was always a very [00:52:00] spiritual compound, right? Mm-hmm. So for me, there were years meditating on cannabis will absolutely launch me to amazing experiences.

Mm-hmm. And incredible insights. And, um, I was also very addicted to that particular experience of really enjoying the spirituality of that plant. Mm-hmm. Um, there's whole traditions. You know, there's the du du clans in India that use cannabis on a regular basis. Mm-hmm. Um, cannabis is really good for people that have a lot of trauma, um, and pain in the body.

It can really answer those things, so it's very helpful and in the same way, super addicting. Yeah. And yeah, I, I, in one sense, I do think that substances should be all legal and it's our responsibility to decide what to do with them, but it's, um, it's definitely becoming a problem.

Simcha: If you could [00:53:00] wave your wand, I would give you a wand.

Sure. What would you do to cannabis? To make it safe for people. I've already answered this question, but, and I really just want to say what my answer is, but I'll ask it to you first. 'cause that's the nice thing to do. You're the guest.

Uri: I think I would, um, maybe add, um, sugar to cannabis, what, you know, like kind of add like in the sense of like, I know when I add a, when I eat a Kit Kat mm-hmm.

You know, I know exactly what's gonna happen to me. If I'm gonna eat a Kit Kat every single day. I have no illusion about that, what it's gonna do to my body. Cannabis appears to be super safe. And I think if, if you're saying,

Simcha: if you're not smoking it, then there's no carcinogenic quality to it. We can even

Uri: debate that.

Right. But even, even that as not no tar in it in the same Yes. But it, it appears to be, it appears to be very benign. Mm-hmm. And the problem, so you would like

Simcha: to make it more dangerous. [00:54:00]

Uri: Yeah. Yeah. The, the understanding of it, the consequences of it. Very dangerous. Yeah.

Simcha: You'd like to add some diabetes Yeah.

Uri: To your marijuana. Yeah. Do have like consequences. Yeah. In that sense, but which are personal. They're not legal consequences. Right. Because that doesn't really worth anything.

Simcha: Alcohol. If you drink alcohol, you're gonna be hungover, you

Uri: know? Exactly. Yeah. You terrible. Yeah, exactly. What's gonna, liver is gonna

Simcha: get fat.

Yeah. You're gonna get psoriasis. Yeah. You're going to um, yes. You're gonna look haggard with weed. You're just gonna be wearing a ro. Yeah.

Uri: And it's interesting, right? Most people that don't, that are not addicted to weed uhhuh are people that had a bad reactions with weed. Correct. Right? Yes. So people that have panic attacks on weeds, people that have started having like negative recursive thoughts on weed for them, weed is fucking dangerous.

You and I are not. I wanted to

Simcha: make weed safer. You wanna make it more dangerous? Yeah, I like that. Okay. Yeah, that's great. I would just say no more compounds, like where they make it, where it's 90% THC. Oh. Right, right. And it's just concentrated. [00:55:00] Sure. And therefore, people, uh, young people get, uh, have psychotic breaks and psychotic episodes and manic episodes.

Right. Because there's just the THC is is upstream from dopamine, and then it's just like, blows, blows up the brain. And now, now, and now you have bipolar one and you're taking Abilify for the rest of your life. Sure. But you just want to, uh,

Uri: from the get go, you just wanna like,

Simcha: put some razor blades in there

Uri: just to have people understand that it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a, I mean, yeah, if you do serious drugs, if you, I mean, I don't do crystal meth.

I also don't do crystal math. I don't crystal meth. Because if you look at somebody who does crystal meth, it's very clear what it's gonna do to you. If you ask them how it feels like, it says this is the best thing ever. I think it's pretty

Simcha: awesome. I bet. Yes.

Uri: Yeah. Um, yeah. But I have no illusion about when you smoke a joint.

It's um,

Simcha: it's

Uri: a joke. Right. You know,

Simcha: it's, yes. Yes. Um, so clients come to you. When clients come to you. I do encourage them to use [00:56:00] flour only. Mm-hmm. Sure. And get away from the vapes. Um, okay. And, um, where do you, what do you think about, uh, MDMA? You, uh, 'cause I know you, we spoke about mushrooms. Mm-hmm. And that's appropriate.

MDMA, there's a lot of, uh, FDA vibes and research and it could be legal at one point or another. And you've seen clients have some real right progress there.

Uri: Yeah. MD amazing. It's an amazing medicine. Um, super good for trauma. Also super good for people to connect with grief and, um, basically process any emotional experience, which is locked and right.

It's calling the, in the med, in the psychedelic community, it's called the heart medicine, right? So usually really help people to open up the heart and open themself to themself and to their psychological parts. And as that is a [00:57:00] mirror image through the outdoor reality, it also help people to finally connect with other people.

So, forgiveness, intimacy, um, right? You see people high on MD main parties and, you know, intimacy is there. All the stuff that was kind of clogging the connection is kind of evaporated. Um, although if you don't do the work, those blockages will come right back into the pipe, maybe in a different configuration because the user has had an experience.

But ego is a pattern. So, um,

Simcha: but it's helpful insofar as clients report that they have a corrective emotional experience often. Sure, sure. And that has, there is something indelible in just having had a moment right. Of connection to self, complete self-acceptance and or connection to another person.

Uri: Yeah.

I've seen people that, I mean, after a single session in MDMA, they, you know, FDA in [00:58:00] clinical studies, they like to, you know, measure criteria, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, for disorders, right? I've seen people that after a single session, no longer met criteria for depression or PTSD or, you know, a certain anxiety disorder after 20, 30 years mm-hmm.

Of, you know, trying to work it out with psychotherapy and using medications. And, um, sometimes the single session could be absolutely. Amazing. Also for people with personality disorder. Mm-hmm. Most psychotherapies will not come close to somebody with, let's say a borderline correct or narcissistic personality disorders, um, are very difficult to work with in regular psychotherapy if it's done correctly and the space is held well and there has been enough preparation in that work, it can be incredible for somebody with personality disorder, unbelievable and absolutely change.

You know, they will no longer meet criteria after a couple of months of really good treatment. [00:59:00]

Simcha: Okay. And ketamine you find, use people tell you useful how?

Uri: Um, I think there are different ways to work with it and, um, ketamine is very helpful for people to, um, get a break from the body for the first thing right.

Because the. The ego resides in the body and the ego is very identified with the body. And ketamine, when used correctly, creates a dissociative effect, depends on the dose. So the person will begin to have a lifting away from the body. So you see people with, um, a lot of chronic health conditions, people with intense inflammations that would normally, every time they get an episode, an autoimmune disorder, that that episode will kind of take them out for like couple of, couple of weeks a month.

1, 1, 1 single journey With ketamine [01:00:00] about an hour long, it's like a reset and the inflammation is gone.

Simcha: And the, the mechanism of change there, you're saying it's 'cause it's a disassociative, therefore they are unblending or disconnecting from their body or their emotion or their personality or their certain, certain thoughts.

And. In the, when they coalesce back together again, the relationship has changed and therefore

Uri: depends if they've been processing with it. Right. Depends on the, I mean, there's a difference between going to ketamine clinic and getting a shot and nobody's talking to you. You don't really have any conscious processing versus doing ketamine psychotherapy.

Right. Or doing ketamine. Even if you do a journey where you, you take a, a dose large enough to launch you to a completely different reality. Mm-hmm. Which is really possible with ketamine, but when you come back, there is someone there to receive you, to help you digest it, to connect it to [01:01:00] what's going on in your life.

Then it can be very powerful change.

Simcha: So it can ha, it can be just a function of the substance, the compound.

Uri: Sure, sure.

Simcha: But it seems like it's far more likely has to do with the dose, the setting, the intention is there, uh, somebody there to assist you in the process of preparing and then integrating the experience?

Right. Right. Which is something that, for you is very important. The integrative process and then the preparation process, that's where the real majority of the work is. Yeah.

Uri: Not so the experience. Absolutely. And actually over time, people would need less and less, uh, substances. Okay. So

Simcha: even though you would think the tolerance would go up, their sensitivity is such that they just

Uri: Yeah.

Their sensitivity. They, they, they have the skillset to know what to do with it. It's like somebody, you know, riding on a bike for the first time, they can't really do anything. Um, and after being riding on it for a couple of years, they can do [01:02:00] all kind of tricks with it. They, they just need to pedal a couple of times to get down the street versus, you know.

You know, doing so much effort. But I would also say that you actually, after some time, you don't need the medicine anymore at all. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I don't, I don't remember how much you talk about it in the book, but there is definitely a phenomenon between, you know, among guides and, and therapists and people that use psychedelics that they kind of get used to the idea.

Mm-hmm. That this is something that you have to do continuously. And, um, I disagree with it. 'cause then it's just a, what It was just a religion and

Simcha: we just have the, we have belief and ritual. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Together. And then we just have the new Yeah. MDMA church or whatever Exactly. Whatever we're gonna call it.

Yeah. We'll figure out the branding later. Yeah. Turn it into an MLM. Yeah. Make some money. Um, I, one of the things that you helped me with a lot that I had had a, um, was pretty disconnected from my body. And the way I was [01:03:00] disconnected from a body that you helped me with, which I think was really interesting, is that I had been, I had the sensation that my body was really tight and I was in a moment of tightness.

Right? And then what you did was you put your arm over here and you realize that actually, uh, sim you're quite supple there. You didn't say that. I'm obviously words out, but I would like to think of it in my mind, the story I tell myself is that you said my shoulder was quite supple. Um, and, but you showed me that there is a real, uh, set that there was a di a disconnect and between my felt sense of what my body was doing and then the state my body was actually in.

And so you write a lot in the book about somatic, which is very helpful to me. Mm-hmm. And kind of set me in a new direction of actually trying to figure out what the hell's going on down there and, uh, connect and really have a more accurate, uh, sense of what's happening in my body. How do you work somatically with clients?

Then how does, uh, how do, [01:04:00] how do psychedelics factor into somatic work?

Uri: Hmm. So somatically, I work with clients. Um, so first by just assessment, right? Seeing how much your body is open. I work with touch, so I don't, I don't do somatic experience, which is a particular modality, but I work just a little bit with touch with.

So you'll touch your

Simcha: clients.

Uri: I will absolutely touch with consent, obviously, rather than I should hope so. Yeah, of course. Obviously, yeah. With consent and, and I talk about what it is and I set boundaries around touch. That touch is never violent and touch is not sexual. And talk about ways we can stop, touch and moderate touch and, um, if it, has it ever

Simcha: gotten weird?

I don't, I like, don't even shake hands with clients. Yeah. Like, I'm just, I'm, you know,

Uri: um, yeah, absolutely. It becomes very weird with, especially, you know, I work with a lot of women and men that have had sexual, sexual molestation and other abuse that Yeah. It becomes [01:05:00] very, what I would say in temperature psychotherapy, dangerous.

Mm-hmm. Um, you know, so I can touch somebody and they would immediately have thoughts or memories or they'll start projecting things on me. Right. And I talk a lot of people about what projection is before we begin touch work. Right. So if I'm touching you and you get the, the, uh, the thought that I'm about to touch you inappropriately, it's, it's your thought process, right?

That is attached to an an action which is happening. So I, I explain a lot of that as we go along. And obviously I never touch people in their genitals or even close to that. Right. But aren't you

Simcha: afraid, maybe this is just me 'cause I live in a constant state of fear that, uh, there's just gonna be a litigious bastard of a client who's just gonna, you know, it's just gonna say like, uh, Ori touched my boob.

And, um,

Uri: I wouldn't,

Simcha: I know [01:06:00] you wouldn't. Yeah, I wouldn't. I know you wouldn't. But then it would be, they would ask you, they would say the BBS would call you up board of behavioral sirens and said, Ori, do you, did you touch your client? And you'd say, yes, but I did not touch your boob.

Uri: Right.

Simcha: And then what's the

Uri: difference between that and somebody who's doing somatic experiencing, for instance?

That's a good question, right? Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, there's danger in working with any client, right? And whether it's touch or because, you know, the client can say that I. Um, made suggestions that I want to have more of a relationship with her or him if he is potentially gay. There is danger in working with every client.

I think I came to a place in my life that I want to live more fearlessly. Mm-hmm. Um, both in my personal endeavors, but also in my work with people. Otherwise, you know, it's just treading water and touch is just a really important part of relationships. Okay. I don't employ touch with every person, [01:07:00] you know, and I definitely don't push it on people that are not ready for that.

And I sometimes don't even need to ask. I can see they're not ready for that. They're barely even shaking my hands, let alone making eye contact. So it's a very dynamic process. Um, forgot the second part of your question. Same part

Simcha: was how does, uh, in psychedelic. Hmm. Work. How are people telling you about the, the body?

'cause a lot of times we think about psychedelics is a journey in the mind, right? And, you know, I'm hallucinating and all this, all those other things where I'm journeying into cosmos worlds other than this. Yeah. And the body is the last thing that would be there. But it seems like the body is a big part of the journey.

Uri: The body is the mind. There is no separation between mind and body. That's like, uh, in my opinion, it's just a misunderstanding. But the body is the mind. So [01:08:00] emotions are physiological phenomena and emotions happen in the body. The idea of emotion is a thought a later, a story we

Simcha: make about

Uri: the

Simcha: emotion. But an emotion is anger is clenched fist and be a little lies and

Uri: adrenaline and cortisol and sadness goes through the vagus nerve, right?

Mm-hmm. So there's, and you know, trauma is usually. Processed as a contraction in the pelvic floor and then in the jaws of the mouth, you know, that there's, you know, it's a, all, all our experiences, we experience life in the body, okay? Mm-hmm. And I have a client that experience life through the mind. I, I, which are usually software engineers and people that are very cerebral, uh, is, they're very difficult to work with in the beginning.

Mm-hmm. You have to do a lot of work to get them down from here into an actual moment to moment experience. So, uh, psychedelics depends, you know, some of those individuals that have a lot of resistance would [01:09:00] be, um, you know, there guides will report that, that during the experience will be lying flat with absolutely no movement, or somebody that'll have a lot less resistance.

They would actually, you'll be sitting, seeing them twitching around and jerking and shaking and trembling and sweating, and there's a whole thing going on. So, uh, the, the medicine tends to really amplify the sensations in the body to a significant extent. And then if you look a little bit for more of, um, spiritual lens, then if you consider that the body has also what we call an energetic body, right?

So there is a physical body, and within the physical body there is also an energetic components that we often name as meridians and chakras, right? Which are energy system that goes in our body. People have what we call deposits in those channels, um, deposits of [01:10:00] undigested, uh, emotional experiences.

Mm-hmm. So we go through life and we experience something very difficult. That experience becomes some kind of a cluster crystallization of energy in, in those channels and. Uh, when you take medicine, when you take psychedelic medicine, it really increase the amount of energy that goes in the body. And those, uh, deposits just get flushed out.

As they get flushed out. Usually the people will have a very vivid experience of what that cluster is. Memory or an emotional response. Sometimes they even cry without knowing what they're crying or they're getting angry without even knowing what they're angry. But there's something that was sitting in them that just got released.

Okay.

Simcha: So it's a, it's the body keeps the score. Sure. There's a, uh, unmetabolized, spiritual gout. Sure. And then, [01:11:00] right. The journey is a process of metabolizing that. So it's very much in the body.

Uri: Yes. Okay.

Simcha: What is Owl Vision? Talk about Owl vision randomly in your book. I no idea what that means.

Uri: Um, visual have.

So one of the ways that it was explained to me in the beginning is just the, the capacity to clearly see, so owls, owls, you know, is a, is a, it's a creature, but it's also a mystical symbol for creatures that have incredible eyesight. And, um, so, and often referred to as taking MDMA. So when you take MDMA, most people that take it in psychedelic, it's psychotherapy that describe the capacity to clearly see through things that they were not able to see through before.

For instance, I'm very angry with my father, and my father is a terrible person. And now you've taken MDMA, which has done something to the brain and done something to your heart and you're capable [01:12:00] to see, oh, my father also suffered and my father was in abuse and my father's father was a really difficult person.

And, you know, the, the, the vision opens up. And you can, the resolution becomes so much more significant that you have the capacity to just, to see more of reality as it is, rather than just be blocked here with our own, um, kind of immature and undeveloped ideas. Also, owls is often seen as a creature that sees very well in the dark.

So it's a creature that is capable, toing into the unknown. Owl is also a creature that can rotate their head 360 degrees. So they can look outside, but they can also look back at themself, look back at what's behind you. It's a really powerful symbol. Mm-hmm.

Simcha: Okay. A good, a good answer. Um, I wanna, can you give, can you explain to me in greater detail the way your closing of the book you talk, you have this [01:13:00] whole two pages you read about doors and the, the imagery of doors and how that works both in your work with psychotherapy and how it can work for clients in the journey space.

Can you speak about. Doors is this doors of consciousness. What are we, what are we talking about over here?

Uri: Often the experience of taking a psychedelic is a very powerful experience, and it opens up a door to a different reality. A lot of people get lost in the whoosh swoosh motion of opening the door, right?

When you open a door, it has, it's, it's a physical process, you know, it has a sound and there's a certain sensation that accompanies, uh, opening a door and people get really hooked on, especially also with cannabis to the feeling of opening the door. But it's not actually what's important. What's important is that you just open a portal.

Mm-hmm. And now there's a whole other room on the other side of it that is kind of waiting for you just to step into. And [01:14:00] so it's really important to learn to just let the door be open. You don't need to continuously open and close it to get the sensation of opening the door. That is just, you know, like, just the first thing we did most, much more important is to walk through the door and visit those other places and get whatever you need to get there and come back.

Mm-hmm.

Simcha: Okay. I like it. I like that metaphor. It's working for me now. Okay. Now that you've explained it, thank you. Now that you remembered what it was. So that was all I had as always. This was a ton of fun. I enjoy hanging out with you. Me

Uri: too.

Simcha: Um, I should mention that, uh, you play the guitar really nicely.

Thank you. And, um, was it such great heights? Is that the song you play? The, you play like a version of it, right? Right. Yeah. Fire and wine is that. Yes. Love that song. And uh, and I really like that. So you're a beautiful man.

Uri: Thank you.

Simcha: And uh, I wish you much success with your book. Thank you. Are you gonna do a book tour?

Uri: Maybe.

Simcha: Okay. Well let this be the first stop on it. This, yeah, this, [01:15:00] here we are. Yeah. This is a book tour. Um, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, yeah. You're welcome. I'm so excited

Uri: for you.